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Ivan Matias: Hip-Hop's Secret Trapped in the Closet

Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:20 AM | 2 comments
By Tanisha Alston

How far can a joke on Hip-Hop go? According to Ivan Matias, far enough. Matias is the wizard behind the invention and rhymes of Jason “Caushun” Herndon, Hip-Hop’s first openly gay rapper. Garnering media attention for an openly gay MC proved to be no small feat. After calling into Hot 97’s Funk Master Flex’s show and receiving no love, Caushun’s exposure to the world was taken to another level after morning show hosts Star & Bucwild decided to play voicemails of Matias rhyming as Caushun. A move proved to be the catalyst for a full-on media frenzy promoting Caushun as the missing MC in an industry that has often been perceived as homophobic.

For Ivan Matias, creating a rapper that the world would be talking about wasn’t difficult at all. Already a successful artist in Europe, he knew what it took to generate buzz for an artist. In this tale, the only thing missing was the right persona to take that buzz all the way to the bank and make history. Although, he hasn’t worked on the Caushun project since 2003, he still gets many requests. This busy songwriter and ghostwriter chopped it up with AllHipHop.com on the creation, rise and fall of the MC that never was, ghostwriting and the business of music.

AllHipHop.com: How did the whole Caushun thing come about?

Ivan Matias: It started out as a prank that we pulled on Funkmaster Flex. A couple of us were hanging out at my crib. The Bash Brothers were there, a Black magazine editor, a major record company publicist and a music publicist. We were all sitting around listening to the radio and decided we wanted to prank Flex while he was on the air. We said let’s call up in a flamboyant way and get on his records he was putting out at the time. [The Funkmaster Flex 60 Minutes of Funk series] Let’s make up this character and call him up. It was a funny thing. He wasn’t really trying to hear it. Even though he didn’t let me spit the rhyme, the next day and night they were all talking about it on the radio. The next day, we decided to call Angie [Martinez] and try it again. She let us spit. She thought it was hot. That became an internal joke. For two weeks we would take songs that were classic Hip-Hop joints and act as if the artist really existed. People were really buzzing about it. One of the people suggested that we get someone to pretend to be the face of Caushun and send them to the station. So, I called Jason.

AllHipHop.com: So Jason Herndon became known as the face behind the voice of Caushun?

Ivan Matias: Exactly. I grew up with him. His voice was like the voice I was putting on the radio and he was out there. I reached out to him. He was an assistant hair stylist at Oscar Blondie. He wanted to get up in the mix. He wanted to do it so he could get his name out there for hair and use it for his career. I recorded a joint and gave it to him. He went to the station and delivered it and they were feeling it.

AllHipHop.com: So he had to learn the rhymes?

Ivan Matias: No. I did it in the voice and all he had to do was show up with the demo. He never learned the rhymes. The tape he gave them was what I did. He never spit for them. When he went to the station, he said he was Caushun, showed them the CD, and that was that. He gave them my number so if they had to talk to him, they would talk to me. I was thinking I could put out a novelty record on him, sell 500,000 records to females, another 500,000 to the gay community and have a platinum record without selling to anyone else. When Vibe called and asked if we had a record coming out, I was like, “Hey, why not?”

AllHipHop.com: It doesn’t seem like you were prepared for how big this was getting.

Ivan Matias: I wasn’t. In the mean time, I’m trying to buy time. I was battling people on the morning show as Caushun while Jason was learning the raps. I was trying to create a media train. MTV called. Star & Bucwild wanted him to do a show. In a six-month span, he learned two verses. That was all he could learn. So we had to find a way to make a show around two verses. We got some dancers and did it.

AllHipHop.com: Why do you think it caught so quickly? What do you think was Caushun’s appeal?

Ivan Matias: I think the initial appeal came from the media. What the media gravitated towards was the fact that they have dealt with many people in Hip-Hop. They know there is an underlying issue of sexuality that is not dealt within Hip-Hop and urban culture in general. The fact that there was someone willing to challenge that, or at least bring that conversation to the forefront, was the appeal.

AllHipHop.com: So are you saying had he not been Caushun “The Gay Rapper” then folks might have taken it the wrong way?

Ivan Matias: If Caushun would have come out gangsta or thugged out, people would have felt like he was challenging masculinity—like I know this cat isn’t coming out saying he is as much of a man as me. In order to make sure I didn’t put him in danger, if we kept it funny, people would laugh instead of feeling threatened.

AllHipHop.com: Although this started as a joke, as it took off, were you trying to make a social statement and do some business?

Ivan Matias: There was no way for me to tell how it was going to go. A lot of people had a problem with him being so feminine. The only one reppin’ Hip-Hop and being gay and he was feminine. He got an award from [gay rights group] GLAAD. He was collecting awards and people were depending on him.

AllHipHop.com: That sounds like the dream that didn’t come true. Where did things go wrong?

Ivan Matias: Well, the gift and the curse was when Kimora Lee Simmons came into the picture. Jason was doing her hair and called me up. He does her hair and calls me. I didn’t want him to talk about Caushun with her. I said do hair and don’t talk about Caushun. She didn’t know who he was. She called him back twice to do her hair. The third time was for Fashion Week. As they leave the tents, someone called him out as Caushun and wanted to interview him for a show. Kimora was like, “What?” That’s how she found out. At first she was tight because the attention was on him, but after a while, she got over it and wanted to bring him into her circle. So she did.

AllHipHop.com: What did that connection do for him?

Ivan Matias: Well, he started traveling with her to do hair. By the time this happened, we were already out there. Kimora basically jumped on the bandwagon. She had a Baby Phat record label. After she found out who he was, she wanted him to spit for Russell and Rev Run.

AllHipHop.com: How did he spit when he didn’t know any verses?

Ivan Matias: He didn’t do it. He just gave them the demo with my voice on it. So the demo they had was the one that I did for him to learn the rhymes. Russell thought he was really hot and had some hot lyrics.

AllHipHop.com: As the exposure increased, was Jason happy? He was getting the shine, doing hair, getting in the circles he wanted to get into…

Ivan Matias: Yeah, that’s what he wanted. He didn’t care about anything as long as he was getting attention as Caushun.

AllHipHop.com: So what would happen when people tried to book him for shows?

Ivan Matias: That was the problem. The whole time he was Caushun, over six years, he only did six shows. He did a Vibe show one time and fell off the stage. He couldn’t keep it professional. He would tell her [Kimora] he was in the studio for hours, learning rhymes, getting up for shows, and doing interviews, making me out to be a bastard manager. The whole time I was the one doing all that! But then he was telling me that everything was going well as far as making a record deal happen. I kept telling him play your position, but then he got locked up for identity theft. The whole time he was Caushun, he was still boosting. When he got arrested, Kimora bailed him out and picked him up in a limousine from in front of the courthouse. He started to play us against each other. Kimora even moved him into an apartment Uptown. She basically gave him an advance in the form of an apartment. She wanted to give him $50,000 and make her driver/assistant the A&R person. I think I was trying to be edged out. But I knew that couldn’t happen because I wrote everything and created the name. She didn’t even know she could edge me out. She tried to sell the publishing not realizing that the publishing rights already belonged to me. I’m a signed writer.

AllHipHop.com: And what happened to the deal?

Ivan Matias: Russell wanted to put out a single, but I knew it couldn’t be done because Jason only knew two verses.

AllHipHop.com: During those years, were you making money?

Ivan Matias: Not really. We were making a little money here and there from appearances, but that really wasn’t anything.

AllHipHop.com: So when did you finally say to yourself I’m done with this?

Ivan Matias: In 2003. His mom called me to try and give him a job. I couldn’t really do anything for him. He was doing hair for local chicks for $50 in his mother’s living room. He couldn’t get any work after it came out that he had legal troubles. He is one of those people that I would say are just like the people who are consumed with MTV and urban culture. He wanted everything fast and now and didn’t want to work hard for it.

AllHipHop.com: Do you think Caushun’s acceptance did anything good for Hip-Hop? A gay rapper has a lot of built in irony, along with already generated hearsay on who is or isn’t gay in Hip-Hop.

Ivan Matias: I don’t think he was mocking Hip-Hop. He was just a fraud with it. I think a part of this project was good because it showed that Hip-Hop is not as homophobic as it projects. Out of everyone else who could have popularized something as trivial as the color pink, it took a masculine culture like Hip-Hop to popularize that on men. This showed a good side of Hip-Hop that’s its open and diverse.

AllHipHop.com: You are a part of a strong songwriting team and a well-known ghostwriter for Hip-Hop. Did being the mastermind behind the Caushun project bring you any more opportunities? How big is the ghostwriting industry?

Ivan Matias: I’ve been ghostwriting more since I did the project. Ghostwriting is a lot more common than people think.

AllHipHop.com: There has got to be a downside to not getting the shine. Ever take it personal?

Ivan Matias: It’s business at the end of the day. In the beginning, it was a sting, but I learned that’s my job. My job is to make things that people can buy and sell again. Maybe if they don’t like my hook, they can take it and make it their own. If they say they like it, they’ll change two words, cut a check and all of a sudden, they wrote it. The problem is a lot of artists aren’t always “nice people” for lack of a better word. It gets to a point where you get to a certain level of success and you start believing the hype. I ghostwrote a joint for someone and saw them a year later. They barely seemed like they knew who I was.

AllHipHop.com: And what do you say to people who want to ghostwrite and not care if they get any credit for it?

Ivan Matias: [Laughs] It’s all about being in the right circles. You just can’t run up to a rapper and say “here!” You are just going to get your stuff stolen and not get paid for it. Ghostwriting is sweet and sour. I have seen people bite my rhymes and turn a part of Hip-Hop culture into something that isn’t even real.

AllHipHop.com: Do people ever get offended that you ask for proper publishing percentages?

Ivan Matias: I should get offended that they are planning to sell records and bank their whole career on something that I created. If what I created is so hot that you are willing to sell records with it, then you should be happy that you even found a joint that can sell your records, you can tour, market and merchandise off my joint! That’s already a benefit. I don’t necessarily write what I like. I create a product that people are going to want to buy. Once I create it and know that people want to buy it, resell for fifty times what was paid for it, why should I be eager to give someone 20% of my royalties?

AllHipHop.com: Who should all good ghostwriters have on their teams?

Ivan Matias: I have a lawyer and a session coordinator. I get half the money up front. Then, my job is to produce a finished record. In between we have to agree on a studio and a budget. I usually have to sign a waiver that basically means that you are giving them the rights to the song and won’t sell it to another artist.

AllHipHop.com: Would you say you have achieved success?

Ivan Matias: After four record deals, I had to define success for myself. I thought maybe this spotlight thing might not be for me. I didn’t want to spend my life trying to duplicate previous success. I have success as a songwriter and a producer. There was something good about being able to have success, being in the mix, and go where I wanted to go. What I learned is the best and most valuable thing you have is your freedom.

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