MC Spice - Kool Herc

Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture


(AllHipHop News) There has been a lot of fanfare over the past week in celebration of what has been reported as the 40th anniversary of the birth of Hip Hop.

DJ Kool Herc is one originator that has become almost synonymous with the creation of the culture, but Quadeer “M.C. Spice” Shakur of the Universal Zulu Nation released a statement announcing that Hip Hop did not begin with Herc’s famous party at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx on August 11, 1973.

According to Shakur, Herc is a founding father of Hip-Hop, but he has been misrepresenting his role in the founding of Hip Hop on various news outlets.

The Zulu Nation Minister of Information also states that Kool Herc has asked his name not be included in any Zulu Nation Hip Hop Culture anniversary flyers several of years ago.

[ALSO READ: Afrika Bambaataa, Hip-Hop Community Celebrates The 38th Anniversary Of Hip-Hop, 39th Anniversary Of Zulu Nation]

In portions of his statement titled “MISREPRESENTATION OF A CULTURE BY A FOREFATHER”, Shakur writes:

Herc is our brother, but when our family strays from us, we must first forgive them for mistakes, but let them know of their wrongdoings, and of course, welcome them back with open arms. We could go on forever about how many artists who are heavily a part of, or were a part of the Universal Zulu Nation, know and understand how serious this is. By no means should ANY of us attempt to change the course of history and flip it for a dollar or for accolades from an industry of Culture Vultures called “the media”, when we have known and still do know that many in the media want the false, doctored-up UN-truths, not the REAL truth. Especially when it comes to Hip-Hop. What is further disturbing is the falsehood that Kool Herc failed to respect the TRUE first ladies of Hip-Hop: ShaRock, Lisa Lee, Debbie Dee, Queen Amber. The women who were there ON THE MIC representing this Culture. Kool Herc went as far as saying his SISTER is the “first lady of Hip-Hop”. Kool Herc’s sister is also his marketing rep, and is part of promoting the falsehood that she (Cindy) is the “First Lady” of Hip-Hop. That’s NOT TRUE.

Kool Herc, aka Clive Campbell DID NOT BIRTH HIP-HOP CULTURE 40 YEARS AGO ON AUGUST 11, 1973. In fact, Kool Herc only did a Back To School JAM in the recreation room at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx. No emcees were present, no “Hip-Hop” was present (a term heavily used by LoveBug Starski and Keith Cowboy), and the Zulu Nation was already in effect. THIS is the reason for this message. Please get a pen and write this down, or go stand near the chalkboard and write this one hundred times to make SURE you remember: HIP-HOP CULTURE IS 39 YEARS OLD…ZULU NATION IS 40 YEARS OLD.

Some may say there’s no difference, and it’s only a year. But truth is, Kool Herc appears to be working with outside forces to overstep and outshine what is taking place THIS November 12th: The 40th Anniversary of the Universal Zulu Nation. Do you know how big that really is? How dangerous that really is? That so many brothers and sisters of the same accord have been together THIS strong for THIS long?

To be forthcoming about the FACTS concerning this message, we MUST inform those who are a part of this Culture that Universal Zulu Nation does NOT condone falsehoods with respects to this Culture of ours. Kool Herc may have done PARTIES, but a PARTY does NOT represent a MOVEMENT. Nor does a PARTY CREATE a movement. But the CULTURE of Hip-Hop CREATED a MOVEMENT and REPRESENTS a movement. Zulu represents and always WILL represent the four spiritual PRINCIPLES of The Culture: Peace, Unity, Love and Having Fun. We also promoted and rocked parties UTILIZING the five physical ELEMENTS of the Culture: Deejaying, Graffitti, Breakdancing, Emceeing and KNOWLEDGE. I would hope that Herc would adhere to the KNOWLEDGE of our Culture and refrain form the misrepresentation and falsehoods. This message is to inform you that there is NO TRUTH to what you have been hearing about Kool Herc and Hip-Hop having a 40th anniversary. Maybe Kool HERC was deejaying for 40 years. Maybe so. But Kool Herc has nothing to do with the TERM “Hip-Hop”. It was a Culture he was INVITED to once our founder Afrika Bambaataa FOUNDED the Culture USING the term. That said, I would venture to say that perhaps Kool Herc’s SOUND system , “The Herculords” is 40 years old, but not Hip-Hop. Give it another year, Herc. And give it a rest. We love you, but we MUST correct you, brother. Happy 39th birthday, Hip-Hop. Happy 40th Birthday, Zulu Nation.

[ALSO READ: EXCLUSIVE: Grandmaster Melle Mel & Quadeer “MC Spice” Shakur Address WorldStarHipHop.com Petition]

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  • therealest1

    Taking claim shit.

    • *LAYING claim…not taking…but Yeah!

  • Reblogged this on HUEY mix wit RILEY.

  • @Real_SirJamie

    Wow…

    • 301614

      im confused you got what daylyt said to cal as your name and a pic of lux lol

  • AK

    i always wondered how herc started hip hop without busting a rhyme when there were already djs threwout the 70’s doing what he was doing

    • BooBoo #1 Solo Fan!!

      He and Smokey used to do battle of the DJs “Over the Dover” and in 22 Park! Yes, they did rhyme over rythms!!!

      • etherbaby

        But Grandmaster Flower was doing this in the 60’s before Herc!

      • etherbaby

        Herc was not first person to rap!

  • I always told people that Kool Herc did not create hip-hop. It was already there with the records he was spinning with James Brown and Sly Stone. If any man is to take credit for hip-hop, it would be James Brown – straight up! The rest of the so-called hip-hop culture, is nothing more than black urban culture. It was already there: The graffiti (been around for thousands of years), the music, the slang and the dances. James Brown was rapping or ‘toasting’ before, but the emergence of the first rapper, is more important, because while the DJ rocks the party, the rapper is what made THE difference in bringing about a new genre of music. I have not been able to find out who the first official rapper (not necessarily signed) was.

    With Kool Herc, may Jamaicans saw him as an opportunity to lay claim to the culture, but EVERYTHING about hip-hop is uniquely black American – no Jamaican and certainly not Spanish speaking. If you think so, then find them – at the beginning. DJ’s don’t create music, they just play them. It is conceivable that a DJ could have been an unofficial first rapper since many liked to talk and entertain the crowd, but I have not heard about Herc rapping. Clearly Herc had his role in the game, as many people from his era have supported, but one look at the movies “Superfly” and “The Education of Sonny Carson” will give you and idea that hip-hop was already around as black culture, only the rapper really changed the game.

    • dfwricwil

      Good info.

    • The first rappers were the African griots who carried on traditions & culture via RAP, while the Egyptians were the first Graffiti artist, drawing on the walls mixing characters & letters (Hieroglyphics) telling their rapping story, however, the first “SIGNED” rapper, *Not James Brown, talking about strictly MC’ing, was “BlowFly”, followed by the founder of the Treacherous 3, Spoonie G.

      (Spoonie, Moe D & LA Sunshine)
      Special K, brother of Kieth Kieth of The Funky Four (ShaRock, the 1st Lady of Hip Hop, was the + 1 More, in “The Funky 4 + 1 More” ) & Tony “It’s Yours” T La Rock.

      Special K, Kieth Kieth & T La Rock were from University Projects, on 174th st, in the Bx, 1551 University Ave, down the block from River Park Towers (Roberto Clemente State Park / Pool) & Kool Herc’s Sedgewick Projects.

      If Herc didn’t start Hip Hop, neither did Bam, and the ‘chet might have started out in Queens ( <> ) like MC Shan said, in his famous “The Bridge” that sparked the legendary response by KRS One “South Bronx”, that launched his career, followed by the legendary “The Bridge Is Over” which ended MC Shan’s.

      This Zulu dude sounds mad petty, like he’s the one overstepping his shine.
      In all fairness, Bam deserves just as much, if not more credit that Herc, but the catch is, Bam still holds Zulu Parliaments & works within the culture, so he doesn’t need the accolades, he still gets them.

      • You my man, are trying to go too far back without anything to support your theories or comfort of African origins. Let’s keep it where we can immediately trace it and verify the results.

      • That’s the point of this article, folks only want to trace it as far back as it supports their claim.

      • Pirate7X

        I almost questioned your giving James Brown credit on Hip Hop but you are correct in the context of music. And he is as significant an artist in the creation as Kool Herc an his record selecting. I agree with & EDOGZ818 that people grab whatever to support their claim, including Herc. Zulu has more standing as the organizers & founders of the elemental culture we patronize now.

      • James Brown is WAY more significant than Kool Herc because James Brown CREATED the music from his mind! James Brown did not just sing while a band played, he made those beats up and the style of music!

      • $11625525

        Hey, did you just quote KRS-One without giving him his dues? 😉

      • Kinda, but everyone knows the BlastMaster’s quotable.

      • Only cat I know of that’s openly said artists can sample his shit and not get sued.

      • The real deal!

      • Strange KRS changed the location by himself. Just because he is from the South Bronx. Sedgewick Ave is actually in the West Bronx. Just next to the Harlem River. And north of Yankee Stadium.

    • NEWSKULL

      Who created what? and what not? Please PEOPLE!… and Why in the world would Jamaicans lay claim to the hip hop culture?…

      Look Everything that humans create is conditioned by Nurture… RAP and JAZZ are the children of African (Oral tradition) culture, European (Music Instruments) culture and American culture (racial Segregation)… Both music could have only been created in the U.S. …

      RAP is the natural evolution of JAZZ… the principals are still the same it is a way for African American to be heard, express their anger against their actual environment and released that stress… the difference between them is the technical evolution of music instruments more than anything else (ok maybe a lil weaker segregation line aka Niggas got guns now) … I mean what if Ray Charles had turntables instead? maybe his name could have been Kool Herc? …

      Anyway that’s not even like Loaded Lux said the “LARGE PICTURE” here… With all that Money, drug talk and other non sense, in the near Future Niggas will have to prove that RAP is Black American Music… the “soul” is almost gone… it’s been a while since I heard a track like DMX “Slippin”… is the suffering over?… with Chief Keefs out there I don’t think so…

      now I am wondering if that’s not what happen with Rock’n’Roll… sex, drug and you know the rest…

      • I agree with your line about blacks will have to prove that rap is black music in the future, and it looks like we are talking five year from now! I do have to disagree about your assertion that we use European instruments! Are you aware that the guitar is not European but black? Check the Moors on that, and ancient Egypt before it. Of course you know the drums, the bass comes from the guitar (does that word sound European?) and the horns were around before whites were around. Maybe whites refined some of them, but they created nothing except musical notation. It is even very questionable is their most famous musical composers were even whites…

        Jamaicans I have met (you know they are proud, if not arrogant) and chatted with are always quick to lay claim to hip-hop because Kool Herc is Jamaican. Herc was not spinning Jamaican songs was he? In the early 70’s, did not Jamaican music have hip-hop like beats, or some smooth Jamaican jazz-like beats? The hip-hop came from James Brown and so did the disco.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        Herc played funk when he got to america as that was what the people were into; but the fundamental principles of selecting, operating, chattin on mic, clashing for dubs etc is the influence, not the specific music genre and its idiomatic rhythms but more holistically.

      • Ok. Explain to me who did not do that before Herc? How about – the rappers were coming up and needed beats to rap to and he helped them out by letting them rap over beats? It’s not that deep and it’s not Jamaican either.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        didn’t see this one. You’ve got it terribly twisted and skewed though I’m afraid. It’s pretty much common knowledge in Hip-Hop that Djs were originally also the rappers at parties and there were no MCs as such at first. yes people had rapped before hip-hop but within the context of hip-hop it was the DJs who did the raps first. When standalone rappers did enter the frame it was as a hype man for the DJ and certainly not the rapper who the crowd came to see til later on. When they did rap they didn’t buss verses but rather nursery rhyme couplets, rhythmic phrases and shoutouts. I’d wager you haven’t listened to much reggae and are perhaps basing your opinions on someone like Bob Marley ?

      • etherbaby

        But reggae got it’s origin from African American rhythm and blues and jazz music.

    • Banksy

      Couldn’t of said it better my self. Salute!

    • atlantahiphopshop

      Goes back to blues

    • So true. James Brown and the J.B.’s definitely were the foundation and people like Herc and Bam and Flash built on that foundation. We need to come together. Hip-hop doesn’t have a date. Neither does rap.

    • MickeyMouse

      Excellent post, Turntablism or the use of turntables as musical instruments dates back to the 1930’s. There’s evidence that older DJs in Brooklyn and Queens were developing turntable techniques(including break beats) before Kool Herc in the Bronx. Guys like Pete DJ Jones, the Disco Twins, and Grandmaster Flowers who was the opening act at James Brown concerts. In fact there’s recently been a documentary dedicated to the subject entitled “Founding Fathers: The Untold Story of Hip-Hop”.

      Hip-Hop as a music genre was born when the Sugar Hill Gang released “Rappers Delight”. She was conceived by Jazz-Poetry, and slaves who rhymed on plantation fields(signifying). And her godfathers include the Last Poets, James Brown, and Rudy Ray Moore.

  • Shakim 30013

    If he didn’t start Hip Hop , why is he a founding father? Don’t believe everything you read. Like my professor would say , do your own research.

    • You wrote it – “A” founding father. How can he found something that already was?

  • $18592567

    who cares?

  • quartzgooner

    Herc was a major catalyst for Hip Hop, and if one has to pick a single date
    his party is as good as any, as he directly chanelled it’s influences
    into one focus…he DJed and MCed in a style that directly influenced his
    peers, and then the next generation of Bambaataa, Flash, Cold Crush and
    so on.

    In wider context, Hip Hop evolved as well as was formed,
    it’s many forebears all playing a part; …James Brown, Sly Stone, Pete
    DJ Jones, Plumber, Maboya, Watts Porphets, Last Poets, the Jazz
    rhymers, African griots etc.

    I recommend reading Jeff Chang’s
    “Can’t Stop Won’t Stop”, Jim Fricke’s “Yes Yes Y’all”, David Toop’s “The
    Rap Attack”, Nelson George’s “Fresh”, Steven Hager’s “Hip Hop” and Alex Ogg’s “The Hip Hop Years” for more information.

    • Troll_E_G

      The irony is the books r written by white folks.. think about it

      • When did Nelson George and Jeff Change mysteriously morph into white cats??

      • LOL I was about to ask the same question. Did Nelson George get his information from Morris Levy or something? LMAO! no wonder we can’t get far, we’re always pointing fingers!

      • quartzgooner

        Truly living up to the name Troll! Have you ever seen Jeff Chang or Nelson George! Idiot.

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  • SD Rockswell

    wait, it took them this long to figure all this out?

  • Those
    SAME Zulu Nation Members Claimed Him At Our MixshowLive Event 2 Years
    Ago And NOW After So Many Years Want To Claim Different!! Its Some BS In
    That Article! SMH! Why Wait Until NOW Many Years LATER To Try To
    Discredit Him!!??? That’s Phoney In Itself!

    • Pirate7X

      Seems that good brother Herc has been exploiting his significant position in Hip Hop to twist facts for his own financial gain. Even DJ AJ said on that recent doc that Herc was selector but a DJ like Grandmaster Flash. Herc has been to Zulu event for years and the Zulu Nation was the organization to back and support him when he went through regular problems and omission from cultural history. Zulu Nation has their doors & arms open to him when he gets his facts and mind right.

      • It seems mad petty, especially with Quadeer being so unprofessional that it brings ridicule to Bam and the Nation. The way he disrespected me on this very thread was as uncalled for as it was unsustainable, not only in light of the fact that I stopped rolling with Zulu about 15yrs before he was the MOI, but his whole demeanor spawns comments like:

        “dehova

        • 18 hours ago−

        Bambaataa and Mr C sitting in a tree ……

        Those type of comments weren’t uttered until his recent tirade about the Birth Of Hip Hop. A person new to Zulu looks at him like he is either unworthy of his position due to his immaturity, (Like he was raised by a woman & because of it, violence is the only way he express manhood ) or that Zulu is in total disarray with him at the helm.

        Q talks about :

        “Quadeer Shakur EDOGZ818

        • 8 hours ago−

        You’re becoming more and more stupid, little dude. You’re a fraud. Get off this REAL Hip-Hop page”

        Yet this REAL Hip Hop page has turned against him & in a way, Bam & Zulu because of his very conduct on this thread is viewed as reprehensibly corny. This is real Hip Hop, in his words, taking a ‘chet on him, and his diatribe attacking Herc, scroll around, and you will also see REAL Hip Hop, in his words, not mine, take a stand against while my supporting my position with him, as well as the way I respectfully handled him with kid gloves.

        He said “There are MILLIONS of Hip-Hoppers who DON’T RAP.” to a Hip Hopper who not only doesn’t rap, but was there when he wasn’t.

        Even he knows he was wrong, as he HOPEFULLY edited his childish comments?

        He acts as if he OWNS Hip Hop & has the final say as to who or what is Hip Hop.

        Compare Melle Mel’s words to Qaudeer’s on the Hip Hop petition, & the comments :

        ——————————————-

        SpaceAge2012

        • 6 months ago

        So what’s the UZN sayin,if Q takes Hip Hop out the name of his site then it’ll be okay for him to continue putting up those offensive videos?! WSHH isn’t the cause of the problems in Hip Hop today,the major labels like Universal & Interscope caused it by marketing & promoting gangsta rap & booty shakin swag music to our youth to counteract the positive message & movement of our culture.If the UZN really want to make a positive change in the Hip Hop culture then they should attack the source of the problem,not just the black man’s company.Sure Q shows alot of crazy stuff on his site,there’s even porn on there like every week,but he shows Hip Hop videos too & the truth is most of the viewers who go on his site don’t do so for just the Hip Hop music,they mostly go on it to watch the fight clips,the Worldstar Honey’s & twerk videos,& to converse & share their opinions with their peers through their comments .

        _______________________-

        This is basic ‘chet, but he doesn’t know it, because he is out of touch with Hip Hop as a whole.

        Look at the Niggativity he exudes as well as attracts.

        Same with the Bam stabbed Rumor, Negative 100% until Paradise Gray came in & shut it down!
        He was useless as a mouthpiece / PR rep for Bam.

        This is REAL HIP Hop, as he says, and each & every time he pops up, he gets dissed by REAL HIP HOP *as he says.

        He’s not built for this life / board & if he persists, some one with less respect and discipline than me, will check him so hard, he won’t come back.

        Do him a favor & pull him to the side & feed him some humble pie while opening his eyes before the next person does it with malevolent intentions.

      • Pirate7X

        Agreed EDO, the preservation of real Hip Hop Kulture and the name of Universal Zulu Nation is priority.

  • JACK FLASH

    I don`t get this why wait this long to try to discredit the man. Kool Herc once said he was influence by the reggae soundsystem culture of Jamaica of the 1960`s. If you familiar with soundsystem culture its very similar to early Hip hop Culture where djs traveled around with their own systems throwing their own parties. Basically like how herc and bam them did in the south Bronx of the 70`s

    • Bam was influenced by Herc, but the culture became standardized? by Zulu / Bam.

    • etherbaby

      But American DJ’s were already doing that in America not just Jamaicans.

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  • Putting up soundbites instead of credibly reporting a story of this magnitude is a terrible way to approach hip hop and journalism.

  • Nettrice

    Actually, we do have the knowledge to trace hip-hop to Africa. When slavers brought Africans to the Americas they brought with them the art and culture of their homeland. In places like Congo Square in New Orleans and other open spaces throughout the South Africans would gather to trade art and crafts and perform dances from their homeland. The Great Migration drained off most of the rural black population of the South and created the first large urban black communities in the North. Migrants brought with them the creative practices from the South and it became gospel and jazz, gospel/jazz became rhythm and blues, soul and funk. The Black Arts Movement in the 60s and 70s laid the foundation for hip-hop as well. Sun Ra inspired black futurism and Afrika Bambaataa and other pioneers. Many samples and electronic beats simulated African polyrhythms. Hip-hop is part of a cultural, social, political and artistic continuum with roots in Africa, no matter where in the world you go. What unites us and our descendants is Africa.

    • Griots = Rappers

      • Nettrice

        Of course: ex. Freestyle Fellowship’s Innercity Griots. My point here is that hip-hop as a movement is part of a cyclical form of black creativity (improvisation, appropriation & identity) that can be seen in different iterations throughout our time in the Americas, tracing back to Africa. Ciphers come from Africa, dance/movement has origins there and the polyrhythmic sounds (in electronic music) and visual elements are also from Africa.

      • So with that in mind, is it possible that in 10-20 years, once Hip-Hop’s been completely homogenized we’ll fukk around and create a whole other genre with an even bigger social impact than Hip-Hop had?? Man that’d be ILL and I’d love to see somethin like that go down in my lifetime.

      • Nettrice

        Gospel, jazz, soul, hip-hop, etc. have all been commodified and appropriated by mainstream culture. The next genre/movement will build upon the last and it, too, will be commodified once it hits the mainstream. Just know that the commodification process (Westernization) strips the art of culture and especially of African culture. What happened when Picasso got his hands on African art?

      • I would like to think so, but it should be happening right now if it were to happen. Thew Jews messed up the biz so badly (probably on purpose) that some may not want to be as creative if they cannot get paid. Keep in mind that blacks had been making music before records in the US and they were made for us only. Then whites (Jews) started to record and sell cheap vinyl for money, learned how we do it, then try to put a white face on it to copy, but it never quite matched the original.

        I know this making whack beats on a laptop must come to an end some time because that is why the music sucks. You have people who don’ know a thing about music, thinking that they are making music because they can make computer bass hit hard. Come on.

      • Pirate7X

        More accurate here. I was about address your starting at slavery.
        But in essence what we term as Hip Hop had it’s disciplines established in early 70’s NYC. Hip Hop culture was is the legacy of African griots, hieroglyphics, Zulu/Yoruba war dance and celebration, talking drums, oral history passed on, shamanic ritual, etc. But it is of the now. Same as you are a result of ALL your ancestors but you were BORN at a specific date.

      • I agree, except that I can show that hip-hop had it’s disciplines established in the 60’s, not 70’s. Also, African-Americans are not Zulu and have nothing to do with them. Not all of us would be Yoruba either. I think it is about a little bit from this tribe or nation, a little from that, mixed with the salve experience and the poor experience.

      • I think you have SOME valid points, but are reaching too far to bring an African reality to something that is clearly not African and is uniquely American. Without us, the US would not be what it is today and would be about as boring as Canada or the UK – minus our musics.

        See, give that we are all a mix of different types of African (yes, and some white too), you have to explain to me WHICH dances, who’s ciphers and whose rhythms, you can’t just say African. Are baseball caps, sneakers and designer clothing African visual elements?

      • Nettrice

        I’m not reaching far at all. Let’s use Harlem NYC-based hip-hop fashion designer Dapper Dan. To the casual Western eye, his work is solely derivative of European fashion logos (ex. Gucci, Louis Vuitton) but when placed next to the designs by contemporary African artists this view changes. Dapper Dan went to Africa and spent time with a tailor in Liberia who presented to him an Africanized version of American clothing. The process of creating leisure suits based on African styles captured his imagination. When he returned to New York Dapper Dan went into downtown European fashion stores but no one would sell him their high-priced clothing, so he went back uptown and made his own, using their logos, while re-creating the designs he saw in Africa. With his eponymous store on 125th Street in Harlem, Dapper Dan pioneered street wear in the early 1980s by co-opting luxury branding from the likes of Louis Vuitton and MCM and designing original menswear with high-end detail—including exquisite leathers, furs, and skins. Similar to sampling, Dapper Dan took bits and pieces from existing brands and remixed them and, in many cases, improved on them. This is hip-hop and it’s also African.

      • So, an expensive sweatsuit is African? You Africanists keep reaching hard…

      • Nettrice

        I bet you didn’t even know that Dapper Dan (who is a pioneer of hip-hop fashion) went to Africa to study before he created his line, did you?

      • Actually, I did not. Why would a person study fashion in Africa? What does Liberia know about fashion? They don’t even have a national dress. From what you wrote, it sounds as if he was taught the art of bootlegging clothes!

        All of the Dapper Dan suits I recall looked nothing like any African clothes and looked like Americans causal wear with Europeans tags on them. I did not see one robe or anything that said Africa. I could be wrong (I am picturing the clothes now), but I don’t see Africa in Dapper Dan clothes. Are you aware that African ‘leisure suits’ are a white creation? All of the Dan clothes I can picture now were based off of existing clothing styles, but he kind of jazzed them up to make them look unique.

      • Nettrice

        It was a rhetorical question. I know you didn’t know just as you don’t know why Dan went to Africa even though I already told you. If you don’t know anything about contemporary Africa how can you make the determination that nothing creative is happening there? That wasn’t a rhetorical question. Key words I’ve already given you that have a basis in African (West African) creative practices: improvisation, appropriation and identity. Jazzed up means that the logos were used in a specific way based on African textiles (improvisation and appropriation). The unique cuts of the suits were also adapted based on African clothing (identity). When you study these works you see the connections.

      • Explain to me what ‘contemporary Africa’ is. Too many African-Americans blanket Africa as if they are all one and see themselves as one. I dated a Nigerian woman and she viewed Arab occupiers to the north as her African brothers simply because they are IN Africa. Of course, an AA would not because we know better, but these Africans are not on the same page.

        I am sorry, but I cannot buy the rest of what you wrote. It sounds as if you were looking for an African connection and slapped some things onto something to make it appear as if there was some kind of cultural continuity. You would be better off finding that in the Caribbean or Latin America than in the US, where the people are the LEAST African culturally.

        Lastly, I still do not see any “African cuts” in Dapper Dan’s clothes. They all looked like urban wears based off of popular types of clothing, but looking better and a little more expensive. Hell, I could not afford one and it appeared as if every rapper and drug dealer had to have one to be official. I saw no African cuts. Besides, Africans did not create white style clothes, especially not Liberia of all places.

      • Nettrice

        Again, the ancestors of African Americans (and people from other Americas) are from a specific part of the continent. Contemporary Africa is “Bouncing Cats,” a film about one man’s attempt to create a better life for the children of Uganda through hip hop. It’s Ethiopian-American artist Julie Mehretu, Nigerian artist Bruce Onobrakpeya, Ghanian artists El Anatsui and Kofi Agorsor. It’s so much more than I’m willing to post here because you already have it in your mind that Africa is somehow in the past. You need to do some research. Read a few books and absorb some knowledge before you make that kind of assumption. If you’re blind to what’s happening artistically and culturally in Africa then you’re blind to the African-inspired fashions by Dapper Dan. You’re blind to the world.

      • I don’t believe that Africa is the past, but it is not the present and it does not rule our lives. We can’t speak an African language we know nothing about any of the cultures and we cannot practice them because they are not ours. Now some Afrocentrics might know some things about some of the cultures, but that takes you all over the place and it does not change who you are, it only convinces yourself that you are something prouder than a former slave. I am not hating, but I can’t just pick an African cultures and decide to roll with it just because.

      • Nettrice

        Look. Genomics has made it possible for African Americans to trace their roots back to Africa. No other group of Americans has been so separated from their native/ancestral culture as African Americans and the result: perpetuation of stereotypes, continued mistreatment, low feelings of self-worth, and increasing crime/incarceration. Ron Eglash, who I already told you to look up, isn’t African, neither is Robert Farris Thompson. They are not African American and even they recognize the importance of Africa. Their factual research has created opportunities to link science, technology, and mathematics to art and culture across the Diaspora. If you want facts start with them. I’m done with this back and forth. I’ve done all I can. Peace!

      • General Kimpa Vita

        Great knowledge shared.
        Peace.

      • Speaking from being there, the first time I heard the term Hip Hop was Rapper’s Delight opening.

        Not saying Bam didn’t invent it, but Fab 5 Freddy & the SugarHill gang were on the map, or stage at the Palladium with Blondie & Chic (Good Times) before Bam.

        Blondie (White OG Chic from KRS’s “Step Into My World” had already shouted out Flash & Freddy on her 1980 track “Rapture.”

    • That sounds idealistic, but the only problem is – where are the same music/arts in Africa? I believe that out unique experiences here in the US is what created these arts. Being poor brings out a lot of creativity in you. If you want to take it further, you can look at all of the slave descendents in the Americas and in each country from the US to Chile, the Africans defined the popular cultures with our arts.

      This comes from the trials and tribulations of slavery and being poor. Clearly there is something that is within us all that we all have created great music/dance/arts in each of our respective countries to the point that we outshone the slave masters in influence. This is one of the reasons they keep us down. Some countries (mainly in the Caribbean), the entire cultures is Africans based. This is mainly in the places where people don’t think it is in like Puerto-Rico and Cuba.

      Clearly there was some energy from Africa, but that same energy or creativity did not happen in Africa, it happened under duress in the Americas. Hard times was the primary element for that creativity. You can tell this because when you look at urban blacks vs. suburban blacks, you can see that suburban blacks don’t create much because they (no offense) are too busy trying to be like the dominate group and have less stress. Urban blacks are not allowed to be a part of the dominate group or live like them so we find other ways to entertain survive.

      So I strongly disagree that Africa is the prime source of our creativity. If it were the case, then Africans would be just as creative, but they are not. It is our unique experiences in the Americas that caused us to be creative.

      • Nettrice

        I can’t believe you asked “Where is the same music/arts in Africa?” Hip-hop is of the African Diaspora, a movement of people across the world. They brought with them the basis for what we now know as hip-hop but in previous iterations was jazz or even quilting. All forms reveal the same practices: improvisation, appropriation and identity (as communities create their own forms). The Westernization of these practices has stripped hip-hop and other forms of its African origins but all you need to do is hear the polyrhythmic sounds in electronic beats, or see the cipher which is so vital to hip-hop and you see Africa. The impact of the diasporic movement from Africa to the Americas and around the globe cannot be trivialized. In the meantime, here’s a book you need to read: “Flash of the Spirit: African & Afro-American Art & Philosophy” by Robert Farris Thompson.

      • Oh, so now you went from AFRICA, to African diaspora, which is what I was emphasizing. I don’t see any of our arts in Africa or coming out of there. If so, then you would see many artists coming from there. African is not one culture you know, it is many. I proved my point and I can keep proving it by showing you that many African slave descendents have a constant flow of creativity and artists coming steadily, be it from the US, Jamaica, DR or elsewhere. If they all spoke English, we would see or know about more from Latin AMerica/Haiti. Since Jamaicans speaks a form of English, that is why people hear about them more.

        Also, I don’t read books on hip-hop cultures as I have seen it develop before my eyes. Books cannot do anything but idealize and capitalize off of something. If you want to know how it formed, just listen to black music (you can start in the 1930’s to give you perspective), look at black fashion over the years, black dance and just watch black in film, namely the blaxploitation films of the 70’s. and you will see all that you need to see.

      • Nettrice

        The African Diaspora IS Africa. It is very clear to me that you are ignorant of African culture and it’s impact on Western thought and creative works. Slavery is not the beginning for Africans in the Americas. To limit your view to just this event and what came after is the reason you can’t see the amazing contributions of Africa (the slave trade was mainly focused in a specific area of the continent). Well-researched and written books exist that show these connections.

      • The diaspora is a part of Africa, but not Africa. Things get lost and new experiences get gained, which is why Africans don’t do what we do and we don’t do what they do. I am well versed in Africa enough to not say something like “African culture,’ as if such a thing exists.

        I don’t deal with idealistic, romantic thoughts about a land or it’s peoples, I deal with facts. Some people get into Africa and trying to find themselves to the point that they go African crazy! You can trace the African-Americans (all of us) to Africa, but you cannot claim Africa as the source of our creativity. It is our unique experiences in this country who made us who we are. If not, we would still be like Africans today, doing nothing and submitting to white power.

      • Nettrice

        This statement: “Africans don’t do what we do and we don’t do what they do” is incorrect. I’m not buying that you’re well-versed in Africa. From what you’re writing it would seem that you don’t know much at all about the topic. Definitely check out the research by Robert Farris Thompson and Ron Eglash. That’s it, that’s all and I’m out.

      • I am well versed in Africa, but I am not well versed in trying to go “African crazy” and try to make all types of connections just to feel satisfied in ‘finding myself’ and my people. Africans speak English too, but where are their creations? Under the white man, they have not done much, but we have, and under much harsher circumstances.

        Now I deal with “Afrocentrics” a lot, and I am almost one, but I do place limits on what is reasonable. If I will not say that Jamaica influenced hip-hop, I certainly won’t say that Africa did. I know that many want to be more than a slave in legacy, but the fact of the matter is that we cannot trace back to where we came from, all we know is Africa.

        Yes, we can check some customs and try to attribute them to a certain tribe, but that would be speculation unless there are slaves logs that specifically state which part of Africa certain slaves in certain states came from. Sometimes we have to accept what is, and that is, we came from slavery but we forged a new identity – a uniquely American one. Africa did not make us into what we are now, our experience did.

      • Nettrice

        How is it that you think you’re well versed in Africa? You clearly are not! Your whole first paragraph is the reason I am no longer responding to you. Peace out!

      • Either that or because you got schooled and need to hightail it out! My point was, we turned out greater than Africans while having been slaved under a racist white man. The white man ruled their lands but they have not done much. They are basically just getting into making movies and it’s on video and not film.

      • Nettrice

        That paragraph you wrote was sad. It sent me the message that knowledge is not what’s up and anything I post is waste of time on you. For others that’s another story. You need to do your research.

      • Well, some of us are into Africa, while others are African crazy! I am into African the black man first, but I am not trying to wear any African clothes or try to adopt a ‘pick a culture’ of Africa to make me feel African. I also do not try to relate any and everything that we do to Africa because blacks being gay, killing each other, hating each other, wearing weaves (as they do in Africa) and worrying about white brand name material items is not African now is it?

        You want us to think African and to think that whatever we do should be African, while I think we should just get the white poison out of our minds. Meanwhile, Africans break their necks to come here or to the countries of their former colonizers, because they love themselves so much. I accept you ideas, but that is not a field of research that I plan to make since there is no real science or usefulness behind it, let alone any basis in fact.

  • Pingback: Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture | Hip Hop WorldWide()

  • Guest

    So Herc’s word is garbage because Bambaataa/Zulu says so? And this is enough information to call something a fact. I see. This seems like a psuedo-religion attempting to codify their faith’s dogma by simply asserting that they are the holders of truth. Cool.

    I seem to remember a time 15 or 20 years ago or so when their was a general agreement among all the elders I read interviews with or talked to, that the Sedgwick party was kind of the catalyst for what was called “hip hop”. Maybe my memory is failing me, seems like an odd and specific place to start failing though. I don’t remember any “It wasn’t hip hop until so-and-so spoke the magic hip hop word” kind of discussion. Doesn’t it seem more reasonable that many points of time/parties/gatherings/discussions/sets could all be partially responsible for this thing, and that it is actually not possible to pin it to an exact moment, let alone attaching it to the founding of a specific crew of people, as if no one else was partially responsible for it’s creation. This shit is getting ridiculous.

    • Don’t put it on Bam though, or even Zulu as a whole…I don’t see Bam bein that petty to endorse some shit like this and AHH is disrespectful as a mufukka for tryin to imply that he is with that bogus ass headline. Bam ain’t trippin off who started what and when, he’s focused on the culture in general…dude was just tossin his name in there to try and give his argument a leg to stand on, that’s all that was.

      • I semi checked him on that, but if he persists, I’ll have to roll down on him like dice in Yatzee, and if he needs to be checked again….I’ll go by Hockey rules.

  • brotha_man

    All i know is curtis mayfield use to spit that fire. still bump ol’ curtis and willie mack.

  • Pingback: Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture - I Am Mo Better()

  • $11625525

    I always thought he was the first one to loop hot sections of the record, which is why he was called the founding father.

  • Opposite Of Everyone

    THERE IS NO BIRTHDATE OF HIP HOP. It came together gradually. That is all.

    • Echte G

      totalt true

  • dehova

    Bambaataa and Mr C sitting in a tree ……

    • LOL~N

      You dead wrong for that!

  • Echte G

    Zulu Is Not the one Who Started Rap you is a originator that came on in the music world with CasetteTapes So actually they R Misrepresenting noww
    Not Cool from the Nation

  • Pingback: Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture | AllHipHop.com | urbanAVI()

  • Guest

    At the end of the day – nameless hater. DJ KOOL HERC is and will be the face of Hip Hop Culture, no matter if you like it or not! If this is your way of NOW snitching the truth…your late! You should have said something 39 years ago. Get a life and chill out! No matter what you say… The world will still know that DJ KOOL HERC IS THE FOUNDING FATHER OF THE CULTURE WE CALL HIP HOP!!!! IM DONE!

  • jimbroski

    At the end of the day – ZULU HATER. DJ KOOL HERC is and will be the face of Hip Hop Culture, no matter if you like it or not! If this is your way of NOW snitching the truth…your late! You should have said something 39 years ago. Get a life and chill out! No matter what you say… The world will still know that DJ KOOL HERC IS THE FOUNDING FATHER OF THE CULTURE WE CALL HIP HOP!!!! IM DONE!

    • Pirate7X

      You are done. And wrong, thank you for your time.

  • Opposite Of Everyone

    As David Toop extensively evidenced and asserted in his 1985 book ‘Rap Attack’ – “rap is nothing new’. And to be sure, rap goes back through the eons and across the globe as a form of expression. The same can be argued for the other Hip-Hop elements in terms of their influences predating hip-hop. B-Boyin’ has roots in Capoeira, Jazz and Jive. Graffitti; well even the pioneers of aerosol art claim its evolution occurred independently of hip-hop. DJing directly from Jamaican sound systems and US radio jocks. What Bam did do (apart from his important contribution as a DJ with his eclectic musical selection) was appoint a singular name (or brand) to it all and essentially ‘artificially conglomerate’ the disparate elements. This is somewhat at odds with the way cultures are typically formed. There are indeed founding fathers and pioneers of hip-hop but giving Hip-Hop (as a culture) a birth-date is absurd and more cynically it comes across as a marketing ploy to cash in on it all IMO… And as for Herc? As everyone knows by now, he invented the practice of extending breaks or the ‘merry go round’. This was indeed a revolutionary, pioneering and critical moment in the history hip-hop; but can it really be said to have started the culture ?

    • Nah man. Jamaica has what to do with this? If Herc were PR, would people try to trace it there? No offense to Jamaicans, but DJ EQUIPMENT and a poor country like Jamaica don’t go hand in hand! Again, you cannot DJ without music having already been made. As you can hear from Jamaican music, all they do is take what was made – in America. How many Jamaican-American R&B singers can you name? Most come from NY, the mid-west and the south.

      How could Kool Herc have ‘invented’ the practice of extending the break when James Brown’s beats were break beats? JB already emphasized the downbeat/funky parts, just listen to his music and you hear the hip-hop already there. Other artists (artists means people who create) copied James Brown and Sly Stone’s sound. It cannot be argued that he started the music since he made no music. I still maintain that hip-hop music had to come from the first rapper, that is, someone rhyming over beats in a musical form as opposed to just talking casually over a record. When the rapper replaced the singer, that is when the hip-hop music began as far as I am concerned. Hip-hop culture is as it always was – black urban culture.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        Jamaicas link is sound-system clashes and the practice of DJs tryin to outdo each other with the loudest systems and having the most exclusive tunes. Also the practice of “toasting” aka rapping over instrumentals. And I didn’t say Herc invented the breakbeat; he invented the DJing technique of EXTENDING the BREAK using 2 copies of the same record beyond the typical 4 bars or less of drum solo; in order that party people could longer enjoy that part of the record where the original musicians had seen fit to structure the song differently and bring the rest of the instruments back in. This practice was the precursor of sampling and became looping once samplers came along and is arguably the most important production innovation in hip-hop. Herc was Jamaican and grew up in Jamaica so to say he wasn’t influenced by his own culture is disingenous

      • I had this argument before. I always kill it with one question: Who had turntables, records (music) and electricity first? Answer that and the Jamaican theory is thrown out of the window. Of course if a man is Jamaican, he will bring parts of his culture into something, but to romanticize something by trying to make it appear as if something in Jamaica revolutionized music is absurd. There were DJ’s in NYC before Herc and if he extended the break beat of some records, who created those beats? James Brown’s beats were break beats, so Herc cannot get the credit.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        Who had electricity and turntables first is irrelevant. It’s who used them in a particular way first that matters. And noones trying to say that Jamaica birthed Hp-hop. Only that it directly influenced the DJin element. Your breakbeat argument is ludicrous as we’re not talmbout who invented funk; we’re talking about hip-hop which, as far as the musical aspect goes was about using turntables to loop and juxtapose disparate music over extended funk breaks. James browns give it up turn it loose was the funk beat that first was looped; but the process of looping using decks and rapping over the top was the practice of hip-hop; not funk.

      • I was not talking about funk either. Again, if ‘funk’/R&B artists did not make the music, how could you get hip-hop? Two turntables and records with no music (made by others) make nothing! The music came before the rap, so looping beats was a old studio trick that was used before the 70’s – nothing new there.

        How did Jamaica influence DJing? Did they have DJ’s first? How come the hip-hop did not come out of Jamaica if it was like that? See, before you accept something as truth, you need to ask the obvious questions instead of just accepting the answers. Now I know that DJ’s (especially radio DJ’s) always had two turntables to MIX the records to blend smoothly and as not to waste time while playing a new cut. What you have to do is to pinpoint the first rapper, then we can take it from there. You can’t say that someone looped beats for the purposes of rapping over them unless you can tell us who and when the first rapper started rapping. If you have no rapper, there is no point in looping beat to rap over.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        The breakbeat was first extended for the B-Boys not the MC’s. Hence the B standing for break. You seem to be going in circles here. I know and have stated that without its prior influences Hip-Hop could not exist; noone is arguing that. But rapping goes back to African griots then on through field hollers, prison songs, skipping rhymes, the dozens and radio DJ rhymes etc. Looping of beats was not an old studio trick in respect to the looping of funk break beats and was first done with decks. I’ve explained how Jamaica influenced DJing. They started the culture of the sound clash with different DJ’s competing to have the loudest system and most exclusive tunes and dubplates; a practice that carried over to hip-hops block parties. Hip-hop didn’t come out of Jamaica becuase hip-hop is a multitude of elements including dance, art, rap and DJing and all I asserted was that Jamaican culture influenced the practice of Hip-Hop DJing which is clearly evidenced. DJs did not start mixing tunes on the beat till Disco came out and this was a practice refined by Hip-Hop DJ’s once pitch control came out. Disco DJ’s just vaguely blended the end of tracks with no punch ins or synchronisation.

      • On the one hand, you want to go back to Africa. On the other hand, you want to act as if DJing and looping came out with Herc and his Jamaican heritage. The Beatles used loops on some tracks and do you think that a mixer came out with hip-hop? James Brown did not have to loop up funk beats or break beats because his music was the break beat, that’s why his music sounded so much different from everyone else’s. Just listen to Bobby Byrd’s “I got Soul” and that will say it all to you. I could go on, but some people like trying to give the credit to others for something that was already made.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        OK this is my last attempt to reason. Hip-Hop is a culture not merely a musical form right? Rap and its accompanying music (one of the elements) were borne out of many prior influences. One of those influences was Jamaican sound system culture. If you dispute that, it’s on you but the evidence is clear. Herc invented looping breakbeats, not making breakbeats, not turntables, not electricity, not B-Boyin or MCing, just looping breaks. Not looping sound effects using a tape machine. Just looping funk breaks with turntables. That is itself was pioneering as it led to the art of cutting up breaks. Looping funk breaks is integral to the musical aspect of hip-hop as it was the basis of thousands of hip-hop tracks (most of which were emulated using a sampler). The MC’s importance within hip-hop came later on but for the first 6 or 7 years the MC’s were there to promote the DJ and hype up the crowd not to buss standalone verses. There’s nothing more I can add and nothing more I was trying to assert. Peace.

      • That was cutting up breaks.

        Samplers were made for the people who couldn’t loop it on the 1’s & 2’s.

        Hit me on facebook for a pic of Bruce Lee on the 1’s & 2’s. (Technic 1200s)
        No ‘chet, they came out 1 year before he died.

      • etherbaby

        But HIP HOP came from FUNK music!! Get your facts straight! Herc said it himself it comes from Funk and James Brown!

      • etherbaby

        Actually funk artists were rapping over music before HIP HOP! Go do your research because it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about! Pigmeat Markham was rapping over funk music on Here Comes the Judge in 1968! This is before Kool Herc!

      • etherbaby

        African Americans were already rapping BEFORE HIP HOP! Rapping did not come from toasting!!! Rapping is an African American slang! Kool Herc himself said rapping did not come from toasting! So stop being thirsty.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        Furthermore re your comment about dj equipment and poor countries not going hand in hand; was in not poverty itself that allegedly led to the the DJ becoming the musician as noone had enough money to buy instruments and this was a cheaper alternative. The South Bronx’s poverty at that time was entirely comparable to Jamaica. I also stated the influence of US radio jocks but the Jamaican influence on DJin is clearly evidenced. Read ‘Bass Culture’ for further research on the matter.

      • I don’t read books to learn about urban culture bra, I know from from experience.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        well so do most people my fellow homosapien; but there’s a limit to an individuals experience; especially when we’re talking about things that happened before people were born. I was born in 71 so was only 2 when Hip-Hop allegedly started. Books and secondary evidence are therefore essential for knowledge in this era.

      • I hear you – if you are looking up ancient history, but when you are looking up street culture, it is hard to pinpoint a specific origin. Any drug addict could start wearing his clothes a certain way and then another copies and then it takes off. Some slick dude or woman could then claim to be the originator after something takes off, while others created it. It is the same with Mike and the moonwalk. People knew that breakers were doing that before him, but it was put on him as something new.

        Books on spontaneous cultures like black urban culture, is nothing more than the white man’s why of trying to document and attribute a time and place to something mainly for THEIR understanding of it. If I were to read a book on hip-hop or greatest rappers, would I find rappers that I knew had an impact on the game in that book, or will I find only the most famous rappers in that book, even if they did not affect the core game?

        See, people get fooled when you watch MTV or VH1 and their assessment of hip-hop. VH1 has these specials, yet they never played any hip-hop! A black owned BET should be the go to TV spot for hip-hop, but the Jews bought it up and turned it into a multicultural channel and downplays the black music. They transfer it, it’s rewritten history and ignores many of it’s players as they tell our story through their eyes, we are the help, not the masters.

        Another example of revision/omission is when I was watching an LL Cool J “Behind the Music” years ago. I was waiting on the part about Kool Moe Dee, but that never came! When LL’s career took ad dive and he was almost outta there, they blamed it on a changing rap game instead of KMD almost putting his career to an end. THAT is the type of revisionist crap I hate and that is why you cannot learn things for books, when dealing with culture and peoples. People lie and omit what made them look bad.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        I agree that history s normally distorted but the books refer to musical examples from specific dates where you can clearly hear the prior influences..And what makes you think these books were all written by white people ? and what makes you think no white people grew up in an urban environment?

      • You ask questions with suggestive answers about somethings that I did not mention. I don’t care about white people and they are not a part of our culture because our CULTURE is not one wrapped around entertainment, it is one wrapped around blackness and the culture that came out of blackness.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        no, you said and I quote “Books on spontaneous cultures like black urban culture, is nothing more than the white man’s why of trying to document and attribute a time and place to something mainly for THEIR understanding of it”. So you do assume that they are written by whites. However, by your own definition of things not being able to occur without prior influences Hip-hop could not have existed without white peoples invention of the turntables and electricity.

      • Dudes been rapping way before the 60’s.

        The Last Poets replaced the singer with a rapper in the 60’s.

      • That was not rapping as a replacement of a singer, that was poetry set to music. Hence the name the “Last POETS.” It was similar, but not with the expressed intent of entertaining.

      • Huh?

        “but not with the expressed intent of entertaining”

        &

        “That was not rapping as a replacement of a singer, that was poetry set to music.”

        I’ll let you rethink & re write that.

        >> In Pac’s Juice Voice : “Check Ya’ Self Q!”

      • The Last Poets main thing was to get the message out to the people, not to entertain. They were poets, not musical rappers. If Mya Angelou made a record (did she?) set to music, you would not call it hip-hop, you would call it poetry set to music.

      • Blowfly wasn’t called Hip Hop & that was rap / Hip Hop.

      • Interesting concept / analogy, but I’ll counter with this, I know DJ’s (Grand Wizard Rasheen who taught The Fresh Prince’s DJ Jazzy Jeff how to scratch ) that deliver “cuts” that can make you dance, as well as rip your pants, with that Maya Ang record over a dope break beat.

        I feel we can agree that KRS is Hip Hop, so I’ll quote him again:
        “Boogie Down Productions will always get paid. We’ll take the wackest songs & make it bey bey beyttah!”(Criminal Minded Opening = Classical Hip Hop )

        So AC DC wouldn’t be considered a Hip Hop group, any more than a Hip Hop record, or even part of Hip Hop, until you youtube’d it & then KRS / BDP’s “Dope Beat” & be like:

        “Yo! WTF?”

        Hip = Relevant
        Hop = Movement

        The movement to stay relevant affects many aspects beyond the original elements. So while “Peace, Unity, Love & Having Fun” remain at it’s core, it also expands beyond music, art, and fashion in many abstract forms, just like it did before Herc & Bam.

        Who coined the PHRASE?
        I never heard Bam use the term on Wax, let alone before Rapper’s Delight opened up with it.

        So while they got their influence and*Lyrics from GrandMaster Caz, who was as Hip Hop as Hip Hop could get, before it was Hip Hop, they can be credited as the Official FOUNDERS with supporting documentation. (Their hit record.)

        It has evolved & will continue to evolve. The Hip Hop is Japan is different from the Hip Hop in the Bronx, but if you go to the UZN 40th anni, you will be hard pressed to tell the Japenese B Boy that his Korean counter part, who just happens to be a World Champion Break Dancer that they aren’t Hip Hop, just because their DJ use’s a xylophone instead of turntables.

        Trust me, you won’t say ‘chet to him, unless it’s to give him his propz for an amazing display of Hip Hop.

      • You sound stupid. Have you ever left the states?

        You could even find great sound systems in any
        place in Africa since the 1960s.
        So why shouldn’t they have DJ equipment?

  • It’s moments like this when I really feel ashamed of my color.
    Why do N1ggers always need to fight over rubbish?
    You had 40 years, endless documentaries, interviews,
    photoshots and whatever else to set the record straight.

    And you dumbasses
    complain now?

    • Tom Rufer

      The media is a crazy thing. You can be completely right and have something of value to say but not get heard because you don’t have the right connects.
      I think this is interesting but they need to come up with evidence. Let’s see other people that were there in NYC comment.

    • “Rubbish?”

      • Rubbish like. I want my share. Or I did this or that. And all this damn 40 years later. How many times and in how many books, magazine covers did Herc, Bam and Flash pose together on photos as the founding fathers of Hip-Hop. I recall more than 10 interviews in which Bam officially names Herc as the person who started Hip-Hop. Now changing the mind cause Herc never joined the Zulu nation? I call this rubbish.

      • It ain’t Bam beefing….it’s his underlings.

      • Quadeer Shakur

        Bro, if you were a member of Zulu, you would know who I am. MINISTER OF INFORMATION. Where do you think the info COMES from? You have the whole game twisted, homey. You keep referring to Hip-Hop as RAP. Listen, RAP is something you DO… Hip-Hop is how you LIVE. There are MILLIONS of Hip-Hoppers who DON’T RAP. I think you should learn a little more. You’re speaking from a fan perspective. More like a Stan. I’ll have to ignore you, as your words are going nowhere and meaning nothing to any of us on the page. But PLEASE don’t go to Twitter making yourself look dumb with threats about wanting to fight somebody. You’ll lose that for SURE, little dude

      • Rap is Commercialized Hip Hop.

        Never a Zulu member, but my famz was Pres of Ch 14? Back in 82′, back when Trichie made it clear in BR with “This Is The Land Of The Mighty Zulu Nation” graffiti on side of PJ’s facing the #36 route.

        I worked the 25Th Anniversary on 16th or 20th street? ( By the Park & the store with the old beer ( settled) at the bottom in the display ) as security (Camouflaged Team that got into it with Fat Joe trying to bypass the check point *The one with Mr. Cheeks & Dolla Bill in attendance with the international Zulu Chapters from London or China or whatever. )

        I know who you are Bro, the Natives recruited us to help out (Rodeo, Bro. Scott, etc ), and while I am less known than you, I am no less formidable, as any man is. Don’t get over confident, every dog has his day, including you & I. If you haven’t had yours yet, then your level of competitors come into play. You are only as good as who you go against & you don’t know how good you really are…until you lose.

        (Why do you think the Natives recruited us to work the 25th anni & why do you think Zulu intervened on behalf of Fat Joe & not us? (Zulu gave the order to back down…otherwise, well, you were there, RIGHT?)

        Not sure where you going with this twitter fight ‘chet, but I do know Zulu trains within the art & I even learned some Ninjitsu disarms from the Native’s Captain, but don’t get it twisted, “Sylvester Stallone ain’t ‘chet against Al Capone!”

        Again, we weren’t recruited for our good looks.
        So stop the Tony Tough guy routine, I mean:
        >>In Menace Voice : “We Supposed to be brothers!”

        So while you are the MOI of Zulu, I’m one of the MANY* MOI’s on AHH. (Google “$chool ‘Em $aturdays Fluoride”), carrying on the tradition / principals of Bam & the Parliament.

        The whole physical altercation comment & your delusion of coming out winning, let alone unscathed, shows that you don’t posses a safe grasps of the situation or envirornment & makes you look more petty, since this thread is about some crab in the barrel BS.

        There is no way I could “CHECK” you in BR, just like there is no way you can “CHECK” me here.
        #UnderstandThis

        On this Battlefield, you will not win, because I will not lose, just like NO ONE will win in BR, or at least it used to be that way.

        The best you can hope for is a voluntary disengagement, which doesn’t happen much, but you deserve a pa$$ because you earned it….but you fuggin’ it up with this petty BS.

        My advice :
        Support Kool Herc & if anything, get Bam into the mix with whatever, in other words:

        >>In State Property Voice : “Get Down Or Lay Down!”

        Last thing I want is Beef with Zulu, but face reality, you bringing your gang against one who doesn’t need a gang.

        Why I never joined?

        It was 82, I was being recruited, & the Pres was riding with me on the back of the #6 Train. We were coming up from Union Square, like early am, smoking an L or Jay? & drinking a 40 with a Muslim?, we built & upon leaving the session at his stop on Sound-view, introductions were exchanged & his name was “JUSTICE.”

        The air became so thick, you could touch it. This was back when Zulu & 5% had beef, along with the Ball Busters.
        Gangs like “The Honorable Bronx Warriors” (RIP Blade & Lenny) had their turf / area like Zulu had theirs.

        It was strong in BR, but not international like it is now, or even National, but right in front of my young eyes, I saw two BlackMen, chilling & become friends & then saw it turn into enemies, but not because of either one of them, we were chillin, having a good time & grew close on the ride, ( One with the drink & one with the smoke ) on some:

        >>Thinking “Oh, You with that gang!” type ‘chet.

        To me, that was nonsense. Cool dude, both of them, and they could have been powerful allies that bridged a gap between Zulu & 5%, but didn’t, over what I felt was BS.

        How can you bang on a friend? for something his gang did?
        Not that they did, but the way the situation flipped from laid back to INTENSE, was enough.

        That’s about as stupid as banging on all cops because one cop engaged in some extreme fuggery. Even so, that’s more justifiable than beefing over one another’s philosophy.

        *Not saying Zulu officially does that, but speaking in general of that group mentality.

        ^This is the ‘chet I see going on with the Herc situation, and is systematic of Zulu.

        Individually, Zulu members are some of the best people to know, but collectively, due to the leadership’s approach, it makes me glad I never officially joined like Herc.

        Stop the nonsense & let’s move forward on issues that need more attention.

        I’m willing to contribute, but you have to accept the reality that it’s not about you or Bam, it’s about the members & the culture.

      • Pirate7X

        Respect. As you know from experience and history, everyone has had beef with Zulu Nation at one point from the Savage Nomads (and about all of NYC gangs) to Posse Deep, 5% Nation, Latin Kings, Thug Life (ha), NYPD, etc. And just about all have come to a resolved peace because of the Nation’s vibration, power and righteous mission.

        You have true reasons at the time to keep certain distance but your path and knowledge I feel asks for reconsideration. You need to rejoin your family in Universal Zulu Nation so we can all help each other: the current MOI, former MOI T.C. Izlam and in memory of those who have served, Lucky Strike and B.O.{ rise in power}. Please consider it, peace.

      • Peace!

        B.O. (RIP) funeral was the largest Zulu event I’ve ever seen, from Jams, to Anni’s to parliaments.

        I’m good with Zulu, and would never let one individual tarnish 99.999999999999999999% of it’s members that are 100% stand up dudes, no matter how hard that .0000000000000000001% tries.

        The anni’s are probably the dopest events in the city. Never know who will show up, I mean, you know the fake rappers won’t, but you can literally end up chilling with Hip Hop heavyweights, and they on some regular people type ‘chet.

        Zulu gets international props, but I hate to see the unnecessary negativity brought on by the perceived arrogance of one of it’s representatives.

        You can scroll up & down and see it isn’t just me. As he noted, “REAL HIP HOP” (*His words, not mine) has spoken against him & Zulu by default.

        There is nothing to be gained by trying to throw Herc under the bus over who started Hip Hop. Even when Clarence 13X started the 5%, there wasn’t any formal $hots (Subliminal?) fired at NOI.

        Had Herc tried to throw Bam under the bus, he’d be looking just as bad right now. To US, “REAL HIP HOP” as he says, Herc & Bam are fam & whatever beef they got should stay between them & behind closed doors.

        Last I heard, literally, Bam had no problem speaking for himself, so him speaking for him, the way he’s talking, I know for a fact, Bam don’t get down like that, inviting another man to his privates? You & I know, if it wasn’t for Zulu, dude would pick & chose who he invited a whole lot more carefully.

        Then talking about “Get in line & ask for an autograph?”

        That was some LOLocaust type ‘chet.

        Maybe from the UZN’s MOI, but WTF really asks for an MC Spice autograph? Like “WTF we gonna show it to?”

        Once I mentioned BR & Trichie (The Land Of The Mighty Zulu Nation) & he drew a blank, I already knew he wasn’t from the BX, or down with / by Zulu longer me. He probably doesn’t even have the old school Black beads with the raised white face.

        My point is, he should conduct himself more appropriately when representing the UZN in an official capacity.

      • Pirate7X

        Heard & respected. Zulu lives on beyond misunderstanding.

        Peace Akhi from 99.99999999999999%.

      • Peace to the 100%, even to the .000000000001

      • Liketohateus

        Your information sucks

      • Oh. You must be form the UK.

      • No. I’m living in China.

      • Oh, which part? 🙂

  • Sho Tunez

    To be real, what they call hip-hop was started in Jamaica long before these clowns.

    • Pirate7X

      No, you are using the same revisionist history as our good but misguided brother Kool Herc. Jamaican sound system clashes helped begat the DJing musical side of Hip Hop’s musical element. The other 4 Elements were officially born in NYC when they were brought together under Afrika Bambataa and the Universal Zulu Nation. Don’t try fit the clown suit on folks when the Bozo nose may fit you too.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        rap, b-boyin and grafitti were not officially born at any discernible point; and certainly not at the declamation of any one man.

      • You can discern the time period for what became known as hp-hop culture. While all had been built up decades before, the mid 1960’s seems to be the defining time as the slang, swag, music and other elements were in place.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        ‘time period’ not ‘date’ – agreed

      • Oh yeah, I agree with you on that.

      • Pirate7X

        Universally agreed dates have been established by both Zulu Nation with Bam and Herc because we all know many factors go into creating a culture and movement. Think of how much more confused it would be without them. This week marks the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington. Is it the start of Civil Rights Movement? No. Does it serve as the universally agreed turning point and organizational stepping stone of the movement? Yes. Can you change the date & name to another time and make money of it? Not without a fight.

      • Opposite Of Everyone

        but unless you’re goal is to try and make money out of it there’s no point in having a date for its inception. Noone tries putting a date to when Indian or Japanuese culture (for example) started do they?

      • Pirate7X

        Want to bet there are set dates for the origins of Buddahism and Shintoism? You do the Wiki/Google search. And the cultures of India and Japan are well-known for celebration of ancestor worship enshrining founders on certain dates. That is how all cultures thrive for generations and it has nothing to very little to do with money alone.

      • Pirate7X

        Also most all Christians universally celebrate the birth of Jesus the Christ of Nazareth on December 25 when most all current scholars agree that from the legends, climate and conditions that if he existed he definitely was born on a day differently than late December. Is Xmas made just for money? Or does it have to deal with Solstice? Or is just an agreed date for the culture/religion’s organization?

      • Sho Tunez

        that’s real

      • Sho Tunez

        A 60 year old man claiming he invented hiphop is some clown ish fam… i bet u think Chris Columbus found America too. If a nga put rubber on a wheel don’t mean he created… @nettrice:disqus is on point too.

      • Quadeer Shakur

        ??? Bro, you are SADLY misguided in your understanding of the Culture. You obviously don’t read.

      • Sho Tunez

        That’s very ignorant of you.

      • It’s par for the course with him. Keep in mind, it’s him beefing, not ‘Bam, so don’t let his antics negatively reflect on ‘Bam or Zulu until they manifest otherwise.

      • Pirate7X

        I will agree with you on that. Respect.

      • Peace!

        >>Flashes old school, black Zulu beads with the white raised face….then tucks them back into the vault.

      • afrika bambuttox

        You have NO clue about the Hip-hop culture Mr Shakur and you need to stop allowing people to use you because that’s what Bam is doing and what he told you that you’ve taken as the gospel are ALL LIES and Bam is a pedophile and a homosexual and he’s taken sexual advantage of the young boys in the Zulu nation that are most influenced by him! Perhaps you’re one of them which would explain why you’re going so hard to represent him! Darkness will always be overtaken by the light!

      • Ravi Ravs Singh

        Exactly what I was thinking. Starting to sound like Christians on the Bible being the one and only truth.

      • Pirate7X

        As with ANY movement, it normally is established by many individuals and factors. Set dates are created so organization and elevation can be looked upon, celebrated and planned. When did the Civil Right Movement ‘start’? How about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddaism, etc.? Movements like Punk Rock could have even more effectiveness socially with a founder’s date but don’t. Bam and the Zulu Nation’s vision knew that with our scattered history and culture as Afrikans in the Americas and Caribbean, we needed a date for the movement’s founding Herc was & still is given full credit in it’s building. That doesn’t allow license to twist true and agreed facts.

        The sideways ‘clown’ statement was out of line especially when it’s ‘clownish’ to stretch facts for arguments sake. Most of what you said is cool but don’t lose it from kettle-pot statements. Fact: Herc was a Jamaican immigrant who introduced the JA sound system style that set 1 element in Hip Hop. This was not personal it was a reflection fam. You know Herc, he is just going a bit too far. And yeah didn’t Columbus create the turntable? (joking bro…)

        Fact: Zulu Nation organized the other 4 elements that were already present before Herc and for the sake of education established the Founder’s Day of Hip Hop as November 12, 1973. Fact: Herc is going too far in stretching his still very important contribution to Hip Hop for personal means.

        Prediction: this will all be irrelevant and we will be at peace Novemeber 13, 2013.

    • Nettrice

      It started in Africa.

      • Liketohateus

        Ain’t no Africans start hip hop..even now they are terrible rappers

      • I’m sure people in Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria, Rwanda, Somalia and South Africa would’ve provided some proof that hip-hop came from there but it turns out they would be insulted if they were told that. “What’s wrong with you Americans? Stop blaming us for 2Pac.” LOL

      • Nettrice

        Read what I wrote, again. I did not say hip-hop came from Africa.

    • Liketohateus

      Black Americans created hip hop

    • etherbaby

      It did not start in Jamaica!!! Hip hop comes from FUNK music! Funk music didn’t come from Jamaica it came from African Americans you culture vultures! African-Americans were rapping all the way bay to the 1920’s with blues music and jazz!

  • Guest

    We NEVER said Hip-Hop wasn’t BORN in Afrika. We also never said Herc
    didn’t CONTRIBUTE to this Culture. But we DO need to let EVERYONE know
    that the actual birth date of Hip-Hop is is November 12,1974… Not
    August 11, 1973. Herc’s first party did NOT include the elements, nor
    did he COIN the phrase “Hip-Hop” AT that party. Just don’t want the
    media to go crazy believing otherwise. Also, PLEASE google and check all
    of our anniversaries and SEE that Herc was a PART of ALL of them. He
    NEVER disputed the dates for 39 years. There is NO reason to dispute it
    NOW

  • Quadeer Shakur

    We NEVER said Hip-Hop wasn’t BORN in Afrika. We also never said Herc
    didn’t CONTRIBUTE to this Culture. But we DO need to let EVERYONE know
    that the actual birth date of Hip-Hop is is November 12,1974… Not
    August 11, 1973. Herc’s first party did NOT include the elements, nor
    did he COIN the phrase “Hip-Hop” AT that party. Just don’t want the
    media to go crazy believing otherwise. Also, PLEASE google and check all
    of our anniversaries and SEE that Herc was a PART of ALL of them. He
    NEVER disputed the dates for 39 years. There is NO reason to dispute it
    NOW…

    • Opposite Of Everyone

      yes we gathered that; but from the comments below you can see that people are disputing the idea that something as phenomenal as a ‘culture’ can have an actual birthdate; especially considering it’s disparate elements were all created prior to this date. Can you please explain how it transpired that on November 11 1974, Hip-hop (the culture) did not exist. but on November 12th 1974 it did ?

      • That’s a very good question, and one that I would love to hear the answer to…

      • I thought that was interesting too. Why post a date? lol don’t make sense either.

    • This was kinda corny though. I support Bam 100%, but many invented Hip Hop.

      Hip = Relevant
      Hop = Movement

      Let Herc get his shine or paper whatever, and Bam will too, and has.
      This diatribe detracts from both of them & makes Zulu seem petty.

      Hip Hop belongs to all of us.

      • Quadeer Shakur

        “100%”…

      • Fab 5 Freddy ( Blondie ) & Rappers Delight SugarHill Gang were out b4 Soul Sonic Force.

        No disputing Bam’s influence.

        Does he still hold Parliament? When & Were?
        125/6th?

        That’s what you need to be promoting. First time I ever heard about Fluoride was from Bam.

      • Quadeer Shakur

        You’re becoming more and more stupid, little dude. You’re a fraud. Get off this REAL Hip-Hop page

      • You still don’t get it.

        A Haughty leader is easily provoked, as you have shown, and that isn’t a good trait.

        Out of respect for ‘Bam & Zulu, I’m going to attempt to hold off on rattling you in front of every one & hope that you take the opportunity to get the image you are projecting for and as the face of Zulu more inline with the rank and file membership.

        I grow weary of your exchanges, so :

        In 300 Voice : “Chose your next words carefully for they may be your last!” on this board.”

        Come at me sideways again, and you will get the same in return.

        With all due respect to Zulu, you are not their best representative for what you are about to engage in.

        I’m doing my best to stall you out & trust, it’s exponentially harder than going all in.

        Scroll up & down, you’re a New jack here & the majority view your current stunt unfavorably.

        The board has already spoken.

      • DJ7

        I’m was the late show on this one b.u.t. got caught up rather quickly and was stunned by the way Q got out of pocket…what the brotha failed to realize is that this new generation could care less about Zulu…most don’t have a clue as to who they are or what they represent as this culture has been diminished to who’s relevant according to the machine not Zulu…sad b.u.t. today’s reality nonetheless… for him to come on a board being disrespectful towards one of the most respected brothas on AHH is reckless to say the least…Although I know you don’t need backup and can handle your own, as demonstrated on numerous occasions, I felt compelled to chime in regardless…if for nothing else out of respect I have for you my brotha…you’ve handled this situation honorably and I salute you….hopefully the slanderish tone from Q has subsided as no one wants to see this escalated to the point of no return…not a good look for anyone involved

      • Indeed, good luck, but I’m good, hopefully he’ll Cee the error of his ways.

        He over extended, but he gets a pa$$ on the strength of Bam & Zulu, hopefully he doesn’t over extend again.

      • DJ7

        Wow…Fraud??? This man is a stand up dude fam and an OG of the AHH community and deserves a bit more respect than this^^^^^^…you might wanna get familiar with this brotha’s work before trying to grand stand prematurely…you’re looking kinda crazy right now B, not only IMHO b.u.t. to the millions of readers / posters that visit this site on a DAILY who respect this brothas opinion / views and have 0 clue as to who / what you are / do…and TBH could care less…Be clear, that’s just from an observationist point of view, not necessarily mine, I acknowledge who you are and fully overstand what you represent, it just seems a lil uncharacteristic for a MOI of your regard to speak unintelligently to another MOI on his battle field and not expect backlash…you won’t receive respect without showing some…P.E.A.C.E.

      • He doesn’t get that at all.

        As far as backlash, LOL~N, you already know. 🙂

        I have too much respect for Zulu to not try & accommodate their MOI, but I can’t be expected to save him from himself, even though you can see I obviously tried.

      • Liketohateus

        Your a fraud with your fake 2pac name

      • OuchhhHH!
        LMAO!

        >> Composes self

        Let’s respect the brother’s “POSITION” as Zulu’s MOI, even though he hasn’t earned our respect as an individual.

      • Todd Williams

        You’re the joke for even commenting on something you know absolutely NOTHING ABOUT!!!!!! Aren’t you Farrakhan’s relative or something? You need to be his minister of information because you got your information ALL wrong

      • Pirate7X

        I’ll agree and predict hopefully this will be over Nov. 13, 2013. Herc needs to come back home. Respect EDOGZ818.

      • Indeed, Fugg around & I’ll show up & make it happen.

        Who is handling security?

      • Pirate7X

        Heh I don’t know my brother but hopefully any ‘situations’ can be resolved beforehand (or at least outside the event). Peace to you and the folks from the ‘Bean’, strong fam.

      • Indeed,since Herc is from my ‘Hood, we should be able to work it out.

        On a side note, I always remeber Nov. 13 as Zulu’s Anni…not Hip Hop’s.
        (Flyers & promo, etc. )

      • Jayce Cabell

        Sad part is Kool Herc is gettin some shine. But not the latter. The appreciation isn’t shown 100%

      • Herc needs a kidney & in reality, all the latter has to do to recieve shine, is support Herc 100% & rise hand in hand with him.

        More could be gained by getting Herc to the top…than going at his neck.

    • Atomic Roc

      Strange is the fact that as more time passing more strange things and clames comming out. Looks like this days there is more care about owning then about creating and is just not HipHop….

    • With all due respect to the Zulu nation.
      I agree it was Bam who gave the culture a name.
      Who was first to organize the culture.
      So it would be more accurate the term Hip-Hop
      was created 39 years ago. But everything else
      was based on what first came together at
      Herc’s party. We all love the Zulu nation, but
      don’t make yourselves look stupid by issuing
      contradictory statements. How often did your
      boss say in interviews, it was Herc who started it?
      Without Herc staring it Bam would have had
      nothing to build on.

      • Quadeer Shakur

        The ANNIVERSARY is November, and Hip-Hop will be 39 years old. Herc knows that. Don’t make yourself look stupid agreeing with Herc’s decision to change the date 40 years later, bro. If I look stupid, then you’re saying Zulu is stupid. BAM signs off on ALL we say, bro. Ease up on your disrespectful language. Thanks

      • There is no robbery in fair exchange “”You have to give respect to get it.”

      • Liketohateus

        But your not the founder of hip hop so why are you complaining I mean who are you?

      • He’s ( In Charles’ Barkley’s Voice ) : ” Uh, Um, well, You know, MC Spice, er, Hmm, Kobe Bryant (*unintelligible) 40 Points, (*unintelligible)

      • Todd Williams

        You’re making yourself look stupid because you have no clue what you’re talking about son! You were not there so you should allow the people who were to make statements regarding who is and who’s not representing the hip-hop culture! You need to do some more research mr uninformed minister of information! YOU’RE A JOKE!!!!!!

      • Sinister Minister

        Here’s what non of you seem to under or overstand
        Bam never organized the culture and has totally failed
        to organized the Zulu Nation

        There are two stories about BamBaataa, the Myth and the Truth 90% of what has been told is a myth

        TRUTH IS COMONG

      • Todd Williams

        Bambaataa DID NOT GIVE THE CULTURE IT’S NAME!!!!! You have no clue wtf you’re talking about dude! You obviously were NOT THERE!!!!! smfh

      • I was not born yet. I just heard Bam state it in interviews. But like a lot which comes out of Zulus direction it might be wrong. Thanks for correcting me. I’m just a person who loves and cares about Hip-Hop. That’s all.

    • Liketohateus

      Hip hop was born in America cut it out

    • Todd Williams

      Man htf would you know the actual birth date of the Hip-hop culture when you weren’t even a twinkle in your mother’s eyes yet son? STOP IT!!!!!! All you’re doing is stating the information you’ve been instructed to disseminate and it’s making you look like a complete IDIOT because it’s FALSE!!!!!!

    • Sinister Minister

      My Brother, your going to be so disappointed with your leader when the truth comes out.

  • tuklike

    This sounds like a sect if you read between the line. Seems like they wanna discredit him because he no longer represents Zulu Nation but if he still represented their agenda they wouldve gave him his credit. Sound like the same shit 5 procenters and alot of extreme muslims do.

    • Opposite Of Everyone

      word. “Religion poisons everything”.

    • Tsume

      I know right. It’s like Malcolm X’s story.

  • so what they mean to tell me is that Kool Herc didn’t start hip-hop on August 11th, 1973 because there were no MCs? Because it wasn’t a Zulu event? A party with a DJ on two turntables in of itself doesn’t create a movement nor was Herc the first one DJing with two turntables at a party but these elements are part of what makes the culture. Herc did have Coke La Rock as his MC – not a traditional 16-bars MC but an MC who shouted out the crowd and bigged up the DJ. (mind you, these were elements that Herc brought back with him from his native Jamaica -go research the dancehalls and soundclashes that date back to the 50s) Herc did have b-boys and grafitti writers at his parties. Is that not hip-hop? Zulu’s argument is faulty and suspect – as any argument would be if you’re just disputing just to dispute without factual counterpoints. If Hip-Hop didn’t start on August 11, 1973, then when did it start and who started it? And equally as important, what made November 12, 1974 the more “correct” date than August 11, 1973? I believe there could have been and should have been a better forum and vehicle for this discussion if it’s based on educating the masses and coming to a united front between the disputing factions.

  • General Kimpa Vita

    Given the heated debate on this AHH discussion, I will give an alternate perspective on this unfortunate circumstance. First and foremost, you begin the letter by referring to Kool Herc as family yet having no qualms putting his business out in the open for the culture vultures (aka media) to come in and control a discussion that is meant to be private. I understand the need to correct a fellow Elder of the Hip Hop nation to clarify key components to its history. My understanding of the early beginnings of this culture starts with the late great Gil Scott Heron, The Last Poets and The Watts Prophets. Please keep in mind that the letter which can easily appear as “revisionist history,” should be articulated more carefully but also be rooted in the spirit of justice, righteousness and equity. The crux of the arguments presented come at a time when the Hip Hop nation is in need of unification given the persistent needs by multinational media conglomerates (aka the Big 3: UMG, Warner and Sony) to commodify, dehumanize and monetize black misery. To be frank, there are a multitude of pressing issues that must be addressed to the Hip Hop nation, more specifically a critical understanding to the realities of the internal/external forces seeking to discredit and in the long term appropriate a culture that is easily imitated but can never be duplicated. I will leave this post with the words of a revolutionary scholar who spoke at large about the issue of mistreatment amongst our people and the best remedy to mediate such a situation:

    “Stop being discourteous and disrespectful toward one another”

    – Dr. Frances Cress Welsing.

    Nuff said. Peace.

    • You should be the MOI for Zulu.

      Peace!

  • thagreatestmanalive

    Teachers teach and do the world good, Kings just rule and most are never understood
    If you were to rule or govern a certain industry, all inside this room right now would be in misery. No one would get along nor sing a song
    Cause everyone’d be singing for the king, am I wrong?!

    • reg joe

      KRS at his best, to me. My favorite jam by BDP ever. Thanks for the recall.

  • Mike Swiff

    Who cares Quadeer “M.C. Spice” Shakur of the Universal Zulu Nation, why is M.C. Spice speaking on this now? where were you 39-40 years ago? why hasn’t others in a 40 year span including Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambaataa etc. stated that Herc is a fraud. I guess M.C. Spice is writing a tell all book!

  • Liketohateus

    Sounds like jealousy of kool herc popularity because nobody knows you

    • Todd Williams

      basically

  • Liketohateus

    Kool herc you get props mc spice has done nothing significant in hip hop so he’s jealous

  • I’m not buying this at all. Rap was around for a while before hip-hop. Hip-hop definitely had its origins with Kool Herc but the Last Poets were rapping and they were doing this in the late 1960s before a Zulu Nation even came out so this makes no sense. Just sounds like people wanna fight for credit. I don’t see how Herc is misrepresenting anyway. And hip-hop didn’t start in Africa. It’s American-born, my dude.

    • Pirate7X

      Umm Last Poets started rap before the Bronx emcees…then you say Hip Hop didn’t start in Africa. You need to decide you origin point bro. Hip Hop is the fruit of Africa: Blues, Jazz, Soul, Gospel, Mambo, Tito Puente, Jelly Roll Morton, Leadbelly, Last Poets, James Brown, etc. Those are ALL the roots same as you are not your parents but you would not exist without them and their ancestors. The product was BORN in the New York City by African descendants of mostly Caribbean heritage; Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Barbados, etc. ZULU NATION organized the 5 Elements when they were disparate art forms. ZULU NATION are the parents of Hip Hop, descended from the lineage of the US south (particularly Mississippi, Lousiana and Georgia), the Caribbean and Africa.

      • Judah Nazayar

        AFRICA WAS A WHYTEMAN..STOP THE CONFUSION

      • Pirate7X

        Oh Scipio Africanus? Study bro, Scipio was named AFTER Africa, the name Ife and Afi was a title used across the continent long before Scipio’s birth and adoption of the name.

      • etherbaby

        The product was NOT BORN in New York City by African descendants of mostly Caribbean heritage; Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Barbados! HIP HOP comes from FUNK music which came from AFRICAN AMERICANS! Here Comes The Judge by Pigmeat Markham came out in 1968 by an African American from North Carolina! Get your facts straight!

    • Maitreya One

      kool herc is the originator period

  • MrNineofif

    Here’s the thing Hip Hop has multiple elements so it’s hard to say when “hip hop” started as a movement. THey were “rapping” in Africa for generations
    The DJ style of hip hop was birthed out of the Jamaican dancehall
    Graphiti been going on before that date as well

    • JdheBarons

      That is so not true. I heard enough early dancehall records to know that’s a leap. James Brown has a record called That Dood It…1957. Micky and Sylvia and so many more waxed records show that dancehall did not really influence rap. The dancehall one liners don’t show a root. And I’m not buying that a person playing records in a rec room started the genre. As many slick block parties that were going on in the BK…that story can’t hold. They have been spinning two turntables since 69. Grandmaster Flowers was one of the innovators of that. You see if i hadn’t witnessed so much and been in the right places at the right time that would be one thing. But you’re talking to someone who is older than everyone you speak of and who has been around.

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  • Todd Williams

    I’m Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5 and the minister of information of the Zulu nation is a clown and so is ANYONE else if after 40 years of Hip-hop culture and agreeing that DJ Kool Herc is the father of Hip-hop so why would that have changed after 40 years? I used to be in Bronx river when the Zulu nation began and the Zulu nation began in 1977-78 and Kool Herc began in 1973 so do the math and the Zulu nation were still the Black Spades during the “Blackout” of 1977 and shortly afterwards became the Bronx river organization and then the Zulu nation and honestly the people who are considered to be forefathers of the Hip-hop culture actually changed the game by adding to it and Everyone who was truly there you knew who did what and we know who set trends or brought something to the game to change it and Bambaataa and the Zulu nation didn’t change the game! Grandmaster Flash Changed the game!!!!! Kool Herc is the genesis of the game and Bambaataa added what? More beats? STOP IT!!!!!!!!

    • Sinister Minister

      Anyone who raised the bar by bringing something to the table that effected the path, is a game changer like, Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5
      his style and flow was new and had raised the bar for all MC’s

    • Jayce Cabell

      This is all i needed to read to know the truth. period.

    • Juliet

      GO HEAD RAHIEM! I could have not said it better. Bam acts like no one was there to bear witness but him. He has a Jim Jones cult influence on the Zulu nation that is unreal and embarrassing. He needs to take the influence he has over those drones and turn it into something positive to up lift our youth. Advanced education and scholarships. Employment opportunities or the knowledge to start their own business instead of a platform to immortalize himself as a god. Insecure much Bambaataa? STOP HATING! Your exihibiting house nigga vs. field nigga mentality. Your actual influence on the culture is not unnoticed.

  • Todd Williams

    Bambaataa was responsible for the inception of THE ZULU NATION NOT HIP-HOP!!!!! Bambaataa is a practitioner of hip-hop just like everyone else in the game who helped add on to the culture!!!!! Keith Cowboy R.I.P of The Furious 5 coined the term Hip-hop and Lovebug Starski expounded on it and the media labeled what we did as Hip-hop and because nobody disagreed pretty much the same way nobody disagrees whenever society decides to call our people by a different name such as Negro, Colored or African American and we just accepted it like we do everything else!

  • Todd Williams

    Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc’s emcees didn’t rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc’s emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!

  • Sinister Minister

    The ZULU Nation has DISGRACED themselves and they need to re-track this statement there credibility grows weak every day there statement is posted
    this is an act of TREASON!!! against the very core of the Culture
    take it down or prepare for a boycott of all zulu events meaning the only people that will be at any zulu event is you, bam and crazy legs TAKE THIS FOOLISHNESS DOWN!!!!

    • reg joe

      Retract is the word you’re looking for. Not nit picking but I hate typos and misspellings from brothers and sisters….especially when they are trying to correct someone. Pet peeve of mine.

  • Sinister Minister

    Amen-Ra is a self-created deity, expressed in His title of “Self-Created One

    If thats what Bam wants to be (a cult leader) for the zulu nation thats fine
    but thats not HIP HOP don’t get it twisted

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  • Guest

    DAMN WHY DO WE HAVE TO SHOW SEPARATION ONCE AGAIN IN OUR CULTURE? THIS IS JUST WRONG ON ALL SORTS OF LEVELS…SMH

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  • JdheBarons

    Rahiem: You are the closest I’ve heard on this topic outside of me. I am a witness to many things. I also have documentation of things that can bear witness to what I’m about to say. It is true that the Bronx contributed much of what we know as Rap and Hip Hop Culture. But the origins of Rap as we know it and the use of the word Hip Hop didn’t originate in the Bronx. Remember I’m going to give you primary source information. (I can show you a Three Stooges short with The Stooges doing the entire script rhyming to music. That’s in the 30’s. It’s “The Woman Haters Club” short. Check it out on Youtube. Also, remember, “A Boy Named Sue” by Johnny Cash? And “Ringo” by Lorne Greene (Pa from Bonanza). “Say it Loud” by James Brown. And of course the Last Poets. But what about all of the riffs on a slow jam? The Unifics, “Court of Love.” Come on folks. Know your history. Rhyming to music didn’t start with Rap.)

    But the distinction between Rap and those other rhymes is this. Early raps were always what they were meant to be. Rapping about a girl. Love lines if you will. “My rap is tight.” A sister be saying, “That brother had me spinning. He got a tight rap. Oooh wee!”

    And the other distinction was, because they were taking music out of the Black schools, our people found someway to still do music and be in a band if you will. Even if it meant singing over someone else’s record. But since music was out of the schools and no one taught your a– how to sing. “Hey, I’m cool with just doing it like the Chilites.” So if anything, rapping as we know it was inspired by the Soul groups of the late 60’s and early 70’s. But I wouldn’t say that the Last Poets didn’t make an imprint to later flourish. But that wasn’t the thought behind the origins of Rapping, as I will point out.

    Do you know how Blacks dressed in the 60’s? There was a sort of a funky style that went along with the trend of the year and there was always a conservative style: Gators, Alpacas, tear drops, shadow strips, and felts. The latter style came from the B-Bop style. Musically that style was associated to Jazz. By the time of the late 50’s and 60’s the clothing style remained the same with the cool set but the new generation wanted to listen to Motown and Soul Music. B-Boppers made fun of us and started calling us “Damn Hip Hoppers.” Brooklyn has been known for taking a word or phrase and it catching on. “Yo Son!” And so it was that Brooklynites took the phrase “Hip Hop.”

    Now I’m only going to give you what I know. And this is what I know. From 1965 – 1973 everybody was going to Brooklyn. You know or heard of Grand Master John Flowers? Meli knows him. In fact that’s where Flash got his name from. Flowers was a well known DJ from Brooklyn. The BK had the best block parties. By 1970 I had been to a lot of Block Parties. But BK’s parties were off the chain. So in 1970 I couldn’t get enough of BK. BK had all the discos along Sutter Avenue, and like I said, everybody was going to the BK.

    It is in BK where I heard “Yo Son!” Even “Yo” I heard in BK first. So I started hearing at parties people chanting, “Hip Hop, Don’t stop, Let your body rock!”

    Then in 1971 (May) I went to Job Corp out in Utah. The center had 2000 or more corpmen representing “negroes” (LOL) from everywhere: Denver, Chicago,
    St. Louis, Kansas City, Newark, the Bronx, East New York, Harlem, etc. Well in 1970 this guy from the BK was telling me how he belonged to a crew back in the day (that’s 6 months to a year earlier to someone 17). He would talk about how his crew would do these parties and discos challenging other crews. He was the Rhymer, Py was
    spinning the turntables (First time I remember someone talking about two turntables. I can’t remember if I saw it at a block party cause I was too busy looking at the young girls). And Solitaire was hyping the crowd. He would do his rhymes for us. But the point in this story is this. He didn’t just tell me, he told everybody because you know how we got to do. We have to rep our hood. And when he told cats from the Bronx and Manhattan they were amused and laughed at him. No one said how in the Bronx
    or anywhere else, “This is how we do it.” And even though I was in the BK for a year that’s something that I didn’t come into contact with. I was going to bars more so than discos or house parties in 1970. Although I knew my cousin was always going to a BK house party (she’s from the BX). I remember when she brought the Hustle back uptown showing us. That was in 1966. I later saw it for myself when I started going to the BK in 1970.

    Now here is where I’d like to insert this information. My dad was a song writer and in 1970 he took on this group called the Shades of Black. They were the hottest band out there in my opinion. But isn’t it interesting that all of the 70’s Funk Bands mainly came out of the BK? Anyway, Tony Dixon, the drummer, started doing this funky beat that was so hot. One day when we were in the studio to record a slow jam I said to Tony, “Yo Tony do that beat in this song.” Tony thought that the song was too slow for it. I got Pete over (none of this was with my dad”s knowing. He would have had a fit. LOL) and asked him what did he think. I told Tony just slow the beat down. Tony did a riff and Pete said, “Yeah. that will work. Let’s do it.” We all agreed that we had to do something different than what was out there. So that beat got laid down. And you know what? I still have that record. Recorded in 1970. That is a typical beat associated to Hip Hop. If you can find me any record with that beat predating that record, I will eat the record and we won’t hear about that no more.

    But no doubt, when you think about it, all of the DJ’s now coming out strong

    ( 1974—————–75—76–77) used funk band music to do their tricks and rhymes over. Jersey was a main attraction for MC’s doing discos. That was going on in 1975. “Hip Hop, don’t stop, let your body rock!” had now found it’s way into main stream disco. That’s when I first heard that being used by an MC. But in Jersey the MC’s were doing full raps like how the Sugar Hill Gang did.

    As for Break Dancing, we as a people always got down on the floor. But a lot of the martial arts moves that came into dancing came from Kareem Allah having music at his Karate matches. The KA system was created in 1967. Kareem had his tournaments dating back to 69′ in New Jersey first and then coming over to New York
    sometimes. New York was always coming over to New Jersey. Back in the day both states were trying to represent. Nahmean? So challenges became like the dozens in dance moves. “This is what Icould do to you but won’t coz we at this spot and we can’t shut this place down. You lucky.” And people would be in each others faces
    doing moves. That extended into a lot of other kind of moves. Not everyone could do martial arts.

    There had become a crack down on fighting at parties and centers, discos, etc. These outlets started closing down or closing early because of gang fighting and people had nowhere to go after a while. So it was agreed by everyone into fighting all across New York by the 70’s that at a club or center there was a truce.

    Back to Break Dancing. The word of the day back in 1977- 80 was “Break.” Everything was Break. Someone getting ready to fight…”getting ready to break on his ass” or “Break MFer.” Someone cracking on you, “Ahhhh! He’s breaking on his a – -!” Someone dancing and getting down, “Ahhhh he breaking on him.” By the time Madison Avenue and Los Angeles got the term getting down on the floor meant Break Dancing. No such thing about doing anything at the break of a record. That was always called “The bridge” or the “Musical interlude” or “Extension.” Like you
    said, people are trying to re-write history after the fact. They are fabricating their own Beat Street.

    Well I’ve given you enough for now. I’m on facebook. Yours, Julius Tajiddin

    P.S. I’m ready for any challenge to what I just said here.

    • Gerald Harris

      TLDR , rhyming over music don’t make it rap an surely not hip hop

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  • kilpigs369

    Al I have to say is Hip Hop was born of many NYC Cultures and to try and defame someone who is obviously recognized as a founder is distasteful especially after bringing Lil Wayne on board it all makes me suspicious…

  • reg joe

    That’s shameful to denigrate anther pioneer of the culture. Completely shameful. Its divisive and against the spirit of hip hop. These brothers are ravaging each other for reverence? Appreciate each others value to the culture without regard. It started not about tearing each other down, but now the pioneers themselves want to tear into the other pioneers? In the grand scheme of life, is it that important to you? Have you not done anything else with your lives that youre proud of? 39 years or 40 years, hip hop has prevailed and that should be celebrated. Not this tit for tat childishness. Its sad to see these older brothers doing that. Just shameful. R. Kenneth O Doctoral Student MHA,BSHS, LPN, EMT

  • I am the ruler!