Tupac's Craziest Secrets & Untold Truths Revealed In New Book: Privilege, Pain & Threats

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I'm Jeff Pearlman, a bestselling author of Only God Can Judge Me: The Many Lives of Tupac Shakor. And this is all hip
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hop.
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Okay. Tombstone material right there. Yeah. And a best suddenly. What's going on everybody? It's your man Chuck
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Creekmer aka Jigsaw here at One World Studios. And we have a special guest, the first
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white nonhip hop, non rapper, best-selling author of 10 now 11 books,
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guest and an alum of the University of Delaware, Jeff Pearlman. I am a blue hen.
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Yeah, I am your first Yeah. I don't I can't I'm your first non-hip hiphop white guest.
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Yes. Okay. Yeah, I'll take it. Yeah. I'm Jewish. So am I your first Jewish? No. No. Okay. We've had plenty Jewish
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people here. Nah, seriously, Jeeoff, thanks for coming through, man. Of course. Of course.
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Yeah, we go way back. We go way back. Yeah. It's crazy. We uh both went to the University of Delaware.
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We did. Both were on the uh review student newspaper. Student student newspaper. And uh you
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were the editor-inchief and you were the cartoonist. Yeah, I was the car Well, come on. Don't do me like that. I was the I was the
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entertainment editor. And I well I just want to say I just learned before we started recording that at when I was
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editor and you were doing cartoons you were sending secret messages to black students. It's probably like save me
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from this place coded messages that only black people could understand and he never knew.
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I'm like this is a great cartoon. White people never knew it. Did you uh did you think one day I'd be writing a Tupac biography? Be like this
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guy. I never I never thought you would ever write a Tupac book which is crazy. Yep. I am.
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But I'll admit, you know, about three or so years ago when you started kicking it
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around, you you came to me and I almost felt like you were asking permission. It
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felt that way cuz Kevin Powell was kind of, you know, in on your mind.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think I was looking for guidance and for like this isn't a
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horrible idea, you know, like this isn't the worst idea ever. And basically what happened, I have a lot of respect for
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Kevin Powell as a journalist. I've read Kevin Powell for years. Yeah. I did something kind of dumb. I I openly
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admit he he had had on his website for years working on a Tupac book, something like that. I mean, for years,
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right? And I had in my mind for a long time about possibly writing about Tupac because I just find him fascinating. And
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I texted I got a number from Kevin and I text him one day because no one answers our phones anymore. Yeah. And I introduced myself and he
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definitely was not happy to hear from me. And I did kind of write um I'm working on this because I it was cra I
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didn't mean it to be crash but I look back and I'm like oh that wasn't cool. I was basically like you had on your website for a long time. I'm kind of
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assuming you're not doing it. So I decided I was going to do it. Okay. And he basically wrote back and said something about kind of white privilege
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and whatever. Not I can't not I can't argue anything. He says like I've had a very privileged career man. I
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what can I say? But I have wanted to write this book for a long time and he wasn't doing it. So yeah. You know did he tell you he wasn't doing it? Um,
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I don't think he did actually, but he emphasized that he's a poet now. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. I mean, he might still do it, but
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I did want to do the book. Like, I And also by this point, I was into it. So, like even if he said, "No, actually, it's I'm working on it," I probably
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would have done it because I I would work on it for a long time. Gotcha. Shout out to Kevin Pal. 100%. Yeah. Kevin Pal wrote some of the best
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stuff about Tupac ever. That is a fact. Agreed. Yeah. And they didn't do him right in the movies. Um, to be honest
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with you, some of the portrayals just glossed over that. Yeah. Yeah. He was he was kind of the go-to guy for Tupac.
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Yeah, definitely. So, what
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Let me ask you this because you are a white guy and you do see things differently. Sure.
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Than someone like me or other hip hop aficionados.
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What is your perspective on Tupac overall? Your general perspective?
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Do you mean now or when I started? Let's let's say both. when you started and now.
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Okay. So, I'm sure you know many people like me, which is to say I'm like a
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cliche. I am a cliche. I'm from a tiny town about an hour north of New York City. My class was 330 people. There
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were two black kids in the class. One of them was Jonathan Powell was my best friend. John Powell,
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when everyone in our school was listening to Aerosmith and Bon Joie and Slayer and whatever,
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introduced me to Public Enemy and specifically Black Steel on the Hour of Chaos. Okay. Yeah. And I fell in love with that song.
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And I remember then I got really into Big Daddy King. And I brought my Big T Daddy King
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cassette to the school dance one year, my senior year, because I desperately wanted the DJ to play I get the job done
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because I knew these people would love it. I remember this painfully vividly. He's like, "All right." He puts the tape
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in. You hear the beginning of it. You know, it starts with like a bloom.
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People are dancing for maybe 20 seconds, 28 seconds. And the floor just empties.
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Yeah. It's like that scene in Back to the Future where Michael J. Fox plays the guitar and he goes, "You're not ready for this, but your kids are going to love it." Like I bet
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if you went to May now, they're all listening to Kendrick Lamar and Jacob, but it was just an earlier time. But I was a kid who was introduced to hiphop
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by the black best friend in the white town. Yeah. And over the years, I really got into Tupac. I just did. I loved his music. I
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was fascinated by his story. I wanted to read the great great Tupac book because his journey really just
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riveted me and I didn't feel like it was out there. Mhm. So I went as a guy who was very curious and also readily acknowledging I do not
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have your background in hip-hop, your understanding of hip-hop. So you try to go in as a complete blank slate and you
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acknowledge that to everyone you interview. This is who I am. I'm a white guy from rural New York, but you'll never find anyone who's more interested
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to talk to you. That's the one thing that would be my my superpowers. Yeah. I will listen to everything you have to
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say with a very very open mind. Okay. And after
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h man I mean it's been 650 interviews in three years and it when I talk about
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Tupac sometimes I actually get really profoundly sad.
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I think his life was full of trauma and full of um pain.
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I think of when I sat down with Seth his sister. She told me two things. She said
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um when she first went to therapy, the first thing she told the therapist was about the rats running through their
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apartment, the rowhouse in Baltimore, and the sound of the rats is what haunts her still.
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And then there was a moment in particular as a white journalist that was like, it sounds corny, but like
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really important for me. I was sitting with her and I said, "So what was it like when you moved from Baltimore to
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Marin City?" And she said to me, "That's your white privilege." And I was like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "We
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didn't move. We were relocated." She's like, "There's a huge difference between the two." And I was like,
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I was like actually almost like, whoa. And later I kept thinking about it and thinking about it and it's like
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that's the kind of stuff you need to hear to even slightly understand what it was. It's one thing to say that someone
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was poor. Even we had rats, but to hear someone say we weren't we didn't move, we were relocated, right?
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Like hit me like a ton of bricks. Yeah. And when I think of Tupac now, more than anything, I think about him
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being a kid with rats running beneath the floor and looking for the food in their rowhouse and they barely had
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anything to Yeah. I mean, the book I read the book cover to cover and
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I couldn't put it down, which is which is a rarity, especially in the social media world and total distraction world
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we live in. But um I was really moved by the the story,
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particularly the first half where this trauma plays out. Y and I can honestly say I had no clue and
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I really was just
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almost speechless. Like I just I didn't even tell people. I was just reading it. Um, did you what would you say you
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learned from that that beginnings those those beginnings? Did you learn like
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Oh, I mean the trauma is is it's it's unbelievable. Don't you think like I think Tupac had a
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really unique thing happen to him that most of us don't have, right? Like my hero was my dad who I told you
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died a few years ago. He was my hero. He was my role model. My dad wasn't perfect, but he was he was
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great. and his his imperfections were he wasn't always the best listener. Yeah. Stuff like that. Little things. Chewbacc
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hero became a crack addict before his eyes. So the woman like a Fenny Shakur
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should be taught in history classes in America. Like I I believe that that is not a talking line. Her story Panther 21
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um rep representing herself in court as a
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21-year-old pregnant woman. Yeah. um turning down the attorney to represent herself without a high school
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degree winning her case um is just insane. It's just insane. So
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Tupac everywhere he would go would brag about his mom. Everyone knew when he went to Dunar High School where he first
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went, the first thing people I interviewed told me was oh he always talked about his mom being a Black Panther. His mom the Black Panther. Baltimore School for the Arts is his mom
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the Black Panther. Yeah. And at the same time, you're watching your mom plummet
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and become this crack addict who's not home, who's chasing the high, who at one point tried aborting her pregnancy by
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taking crack, more crack than usual. Like, so imagine like your hero is also the
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person who kind of tortures you watching her. Yeah. And that was his that was his being. And I just think that fueled a lot of what
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he was both as an artist and just as a human being. Yeah. Wow. That's I have no comment
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because it's just mindblowing. It's sad. Yeah. Now, you interviewed all these people.
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Um there's there's a few things notable. We'll get into some of them. Um but you start the book off
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with finding Brenda's baby in quotes. Yeah. And re and also subsequently reuniting
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them with with the mother with Brenda. Brenda. Yeah. Quote Brenda. Now, I actually put it
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down after after reading that. That's how it starts. I put it down for I think maybe a week. I was just like, "What did
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I just read?" Yeah. What? H And that's where I think for you, that's
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where I think Being White is is like this superpower, right? As crazy as it sounds. No, because
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all of us have listened to that song, watched that video. Some of us knew it was a real life
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story, right? We knew Omar Eps had talked about it before, right? Right. Yeah. But no one ever
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thought to find this person or the mother. No one ever thought of doing that. Yeah.
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But you did. I don't think it's my white superpower. I think it's my sports illustrated superpower. Your sports illustrated super.
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So I started my career I started my career as a newspaper writer in Nashville. Okay. Started my career at the Delaware Review with Chuck Creeper. Then and then I was
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at SI. And SI when I was there for all its flaws had some of the great writers. Okay,
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great Rick Riley and Steve Russian and Gary Smith and these guys Phil Taylor, great great writers who the whole idea
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at SI was go beyond, go beyond, go beyond. Gary Smith used to always say make the extra call, make the extra
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call, make the extra call. And it becomes this thing, how do you stand out from other pieces? We're all writing about the same athletes. We're all
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writing LeBron James stories. How did Grant Wall write a better LeBron James story? You make the extra call.
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And I love the song Brenda's Got a Baby. I actually don't think it's not like Brenda's Got a Baby is one of Tupac's 10 best songs. So, I don't think anyone
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would argue that it's really literal. It's a early, you know, kind of early beat. It's not the best production,
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whatever. But the idea, Omar Eps, I heard him in a video say
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Tupac read this article. So, I'm like, I'm going to find this article. I'm gonna find the article. Took me not long to find the article. I
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find the article and it was called Cries in the Night. It was in the New York Daily News in 1991. a reporter named uh
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Linda Uglacus wrote it and it was about a 12-y old girl in the Noble Drew Ali
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housing uh development in Brooklyn who was raped by a cousin, had the baby on
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the on the bathroom floor, put the baby in an odd job plastic bag, threw the baby down the trash heap. It's the day
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the trash is supposed to be compacted. A guy who works in the building hears a baby crying, gets a baby, brings a baby
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to hospital. I called I work with a uh a genealogologist named Michelle Sulie who
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I went to high school with and I was like do you think we could find this baby? She's like it's kind of a hard one
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but give me a few days. She's just like a wizard. She calls me a few days later. She's like I think I found I think I
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have a contact information. She gives me a number. I text because no one answers our phones anymore.
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I text the crudest text ever. He uh he and I have laughed about this since. Hey, my name's Jeff Pearl. I'm a writer
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blah blah working on a Tupac book. um by any chance is this you? And I attached the photo of the article. Again, it's
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not my finest moment as a texter, but he wrote back basically, "Holy crap. Um, let's talk tomorrow." I talked to him
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the next day. He happens to live in Las Vegas. I drive out. I live in Southern California. I drive out to Las Vegas. I
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meet him at a Starbucks. Basically, everything in that article happened to him. He's adopted by parents
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and they move to Las Vegas. He knows his story, but doesn't know the details of his story. A couple years
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ago, his parents died. He does an ancestry.com search. All these names come back to Brooklyn and the Noble Drew
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Ali public housing. He starts reaching out to them. They're like, "Holy crap. Holy crap.
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Holy crap. Do you know who you are? Do you know who you are? Do you like Tupac?" He likes Biggie more, but he always
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said, "I'm from Brooklyn. What do you want?" I'm like, "Tupac's from New York." He's like, "I like Biggie more." But yeah, I love Tupac. Do you know the song Brenda's Got a Baby? Of course I
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do. We think that's you. He flies to New York. He meets with the families. It's like this Antoine Fischer
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moment at the end of the movie where he has this family moment with everyone and they're crying and the tears and he
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he showed me a photo of him standing next to the trash shoot where he was thrown down as a baby. Wow. So, we have this moment and I asked him
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if he's had contact with his mother. He has not. I mentioned Michelle Sulie. I go to Michelle. I'm like, "It'd be great
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if we could find this mother." She's like, "That might be a little harder. She's a wizard." Couple days later, she
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has a number. And she texts this woman and she said, "By any chance, is this Janine?" And actually, it's funny how Michelle tells it. She wrote back,
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"Who's this?" And she's like, "It's Michelle." Because she was just trying to get her on the phone so she could talk to her. This woman calls, "Uh,
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Michelle was like, "Uh, I'm a genealogologist. I'm working with a writer named Jeff Pearlman. Were you the
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mother of a uh of a when you were 12 years old, did you give birth?" And she starts going, "Do you know where my son
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is? Do you know where my son is?" And she's screaming and crying, "I've been looking for my son for 20s something
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years. Do you know where he is?" Michelle says, "Yeah, we're in contact with him." And the woman says, "I uh I
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live in Newark, but I'm away from home for a Red Hot Chili Peppers concert." Yeah.
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And Michelle says, "Where are they playing?" And she goes, "Veus." And they met that night and reunited.
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Oh my god, that's crazy. It's by far 30 years of reporting, the craziest reporting of my life. And it's all due
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to the genealogologist. She's a wizard of wizards. Yeah. And Brenda's a Red Hot Chili Peppers
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fan, which is, you know what, it's my favorite detail of the story. right? I don't I don't know. Yeah, it's funny.
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That's my favorite rock group. Chili Peppers are great. Yeah, Chili Peppers are great. They're my favorite. But I know that more guy.
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Really? Love Holland is Holland Rock. Isn't that yacht rock? I'm sorry. Sorry.
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You're calling Rich Girl Yacht Rock. Come on. It's one of the great songs of all time. Okay. Sampled many times.
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Yeah. My fault. I love Hollow Notes. I wish they could get it together. Yeah, I know. They hate each other now, right?
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It's over. Oh man. So, but specifically
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like why did I pursue it? Yeah. Like the Yeah. What? I don't know.
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I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I get um this is good and bad. I get
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super super finite in reporting in the way I think. Um I don't know where I learned this, but really is true in journalism. Like
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you're going to interview a baseball player, right? So you interview Juan Sodto. The obvious question is contract,
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batting average, home runs, whatever. The good reporter, I think, looks behind
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him in his locker and notices a picture of a little kid and says, "Hey, uh, Juan, who's that kid?" He's like, "Oh,
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it's a kid. His make a wish, blah, blah, blah, to see me." Oh, what'd you do with him? Oh, I went to his home and I had
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dinner. Oh, what'd you have for dinner? And all of a sudden, you have this amazing story about Juan Sodto because you went smaller and smaller and smaller
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and smaller. Brenda's Got a Baby to me. I know same song was his really his first verse that
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people know but Brenda's got a baby was like hello this is Tupac moment for him and the video with money being in the
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video black and white Alan use video like it was this moment for him I just thought how can I break this down to as
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much minutiae as possible. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Um so
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so there are other parts of this book that are really really heavy and we've talked about it. um parts that
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uh I tried to say you don't really want to put that in there. So I don't want to spoil it.
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It's all good. It's okay. But okay, I just want to say one thing. Yeah. The thing about biography like this is
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actually important. You have a decision to make in biography, right? You do. You have a decision to make, right?
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Am I writing a definitive look at this person's life? Warts and all good and bad. Am I writing that or am I writing a
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book for fans that fans can say, "Oh, this reinforces everything I ever thought about this person and I love it and my kids are going to love it." Or am
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I trying to write a book that might be could be hard to read, but it's the true historic record,
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this artist, and that's I'm not saying I succeed or fail, but that's what you try to do, right? So, there are things you just
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what can you do? Yeah. You have a choice to make as a journalist. So, in hip-hop, I'll be very specific.
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In hip-hop, we walk a tight rope, a very tight rope, because one,
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it's it's kind of tough to be in this culture
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and tell the absolute truth. Whether it's tr, you know, truth
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is always murky, muddy water. But, you know, you can meet someone in the in
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the club and they not like what you wrote. And it's happened before many times. Now, I've never had that issue,
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per se, but when you write something like this, sometimes you feel like it's
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better that someone outside of the culture did it because someone inside the culture may not farewell as they
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move forward. Yeah. I mean, I got I've gotten some death threats like that. You gotten death threats?
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Yeah, it's new to me, but I have because I did something stupid. I'm totally open about this. I I did something so freaking stupid.
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Couple months before the book came out, I was on a podcast. It wasn't about Tupac. They asked me about Tupac. And the thing is like you get used to
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talking sports and sports is a like in a way it's a BS me. It's just like, "Oh, the Jets are going to suck this year.
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Here's why Justin Fields blah blah blah." Right? And I said very like flippantly. They asked me about Tupac. And I was like,
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"Well, you know, it was I don't remember my exact words. It was like a lot of it was kind of an act. He wasn't great with a gun and he wasn't a great fighter
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and It was on the one hand it was important
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for me. It was actually important for me. It was like a moment of recognition that this is not a subject that you in
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particular white outsider sports writer can just be flipped about. Period.
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Period. Cannot be flip about it. Yeah. And that was like a flip moment. I wasn't really thinking and there's like
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there is research behind what I said to a cert you know like to but it was like a flip thing and I got the just the
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stuff I got. Yeah. For me you don't get that in sports. I guess you do that hip hop probably in sports
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it happens. But when I was on Fox News I definitely got like similar negativity.
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Yeah. Yeah. And it hurts. It stings then people say oh just don't read it. It's not that easy. It's not that easy.
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Yeah. you know, so hopefully no more death threats. Um, but that said,
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so no, honestly, so in the book there's, you know, Tupac went to jail for or
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prison rather for uh a rape. Yep. Uh that technically was sexual battery.
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Sexual I'm sorry. Yeah. No, no, right. Right. Yeah. But there's another
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sexual assault case. I'll tell the story if you want. Tell the story. All right. So again, this is the kind of
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thing perfect people are like, you just want to sell books. If my goal really was quote unquote to just sell books, I
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probably wouldn't even include this in there, you know, because it's it's painful and it sucks. But
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I was doing research and I came across first a redacted police report about a woman who four months before the Parker
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Meridian in New York City situation um accused Tupac and some of his people
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he rolled with of rape. Mhm. And she filed a full police report, but I had redacted without names. And then I
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found an unredacted report. And I reached out to the woman. And basically what she said is it was her
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21st birthday. She was out with friends at a club. Tupac and I think four other
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guys were with her. She's at the club. She's dancing with Tupac. Um she didn't think of it. She just thought it was
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cool to be dancing with Tupac Shakur. Like she had a boyfriend literally as a football player at USC. So it was not she was going there after.
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He was Yeah, he was. was not there at the club. Her friends are like, "We're ready to leave." She wasn't even hang out with Tupac at this point. Her
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friends are like, "Um, we're ready to leave." And she's like, "Well, let's give it another few minutes." She goes outside and they left. Her friends left
21:49
her at the club. She her Tupac and his his guys see her kind of outside the club upset. And this
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is pre- cell, pre Uber. It's not as easy to get home, you know. Yeah. They say, "Hey, do you need a ride?" She
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says, "Okay." Okay. And she literally said to me, I kind of thought to myself, I'd be okay because Tupac is famous and
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why would a famous person do something, right? Okay. According to her and according to the
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report, instead of driving her home, Tupac says, "Well, we have to stop off at my place first." He had a place near
22:19
the club in LA. They stopped there. She's like, "I'll just wait in the car." He's like, "No, come on in. Come on in."
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She's like, "Okay." She She goes in. He says, "Come on in the bedroom." And according to her, he sexually assaulted
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her and according to her said invited her f his friends to
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she said she had sex with Tupac. She with a friend. He starts screaming whatever. He's like just take her home.
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A friend starts driving her home. She was he was just going to drop her off at like a
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7-Eleven. Yeah. And somehow he said basically, if you give me do a sexual act on me, I'll
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drive you home. Otherwise, I'm not going to do it. So, basically, this all happens. She gets home to her boyfriend. She's
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screaming. She's crying. She did the act. Yeah. Yeah. She gets home. She's screaming. She's crying. She's telling her boyfriend what
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happened. Um boyfriend, according to her, is like, "Where is this? I'm going to get a bunch of the guys on the
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football team and we're just going to go kick the [ __ ] out of Tupac." That was literally what she said. She's like, "No, no, no. I want to file a police
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report." Go to the police report. It's all in the documents. Filed a police report, handed over. She was uh bleeding
23:25
from the rectum. She had blood in her under her, all this stuff. And um
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whoever was in charge of the investigation decided not to pursue it. And it's this is written
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clearly in this police report because um it said she had a chance to run away
23:43
when they stopped at 7-Eleven and she didn't do it. Therefore, we're not going to pursue this.
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That's literally what they were. So I found her and she didn't want to talk at first, right? And I reached out. you know, you always
23:54
try twice because it, you know, and she said, "Do you have the report?" And I was like, "I do." She says, "Well, I'd like to see it." And I showed it to her
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and she was so angry because it reminded her that they didn't pursue it and everything she put into it. She wanted to read it. And she told
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me at the end, she said, I said, she said, "I can't tell you everything, but I can tell you I believe
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the other woman because he did the exact same thing to me." Do I like reporting that? No.
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Are people going to probably hate me for reporting that? I suppose so. Yeah. But what are you supposed to do when you're writing a biography? And the
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whole park meridian situation is a huge is the reason he went to Clinton, right?
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So what are you supposed to do as a journalist? What are you supposed to do? You checked, you called the sources, you
24:35
have the report, you have the redacted, the unredacted, you know, it all happened. You know it was allegedly happened. I sure happened.
24:41
And I interviewed the woman and she actually said to me at one point, she's like, I think she was 52. She's like, I'm 52 years old. You're not using my
24:47
name. I didn't use her name. She's, you know, alleged rape victim. She's like, I'm married with kids. Why would I lie
24:52
about this? Yeah. Like, why would I make this up all these years later? I don't, you know. So, there you go.
24:58
So, here's a stupid question. My dad would say there's no such thing. Well, you might. Is there any This is for hip-hop. Is
25:06
there any possibility some of these things that you've unearthed are wrong
25:11
or incorrect? I mean, the thing is, I just said this
25:16
to someone before, when you write a biography, you are relying on memory often times. this case I had documentation right but someone says
25:22
like all right I talked to Jim Belalushi because they were in gang related together or Leila Rashne and Leila Ronne was awesome she
25:28
told me she's awesome by the way she told me this great story about they uh they were they were filming and one
25:35
day um there was a delay on the set and Tupac said to her uh yo why don't we
25:40
just go to a movie not as a date like just why we go there's a movie playing here why don't we go to a movie and she told me she said I'm not going with you
25:47
and he's like why he was I don't want to get shot now Is it possible she said I don't really feel like doing that or she
25:53
made up a headache? It's possible it was 30 years ago. Yeah. It's a part of a biographer you are relying on memories and you hope that
26:00
memories are accurate. Now you double you triple check when it's the important detailed everything. But if it's someone
26:06
telling a story about that fun time on gang related, you're more willing to rely on memory. You know what I mean? Like Yeah, of course.
26:12
Yeah. So, okay. Yeah. Um, what was your favorite part of the book? like what you
26:19
know obviously there's Brenda and but you know what did you enjoy? So I um I love Marin City. I love his
26:26
time in Marin City. It's fascinating. It was painful for him. And I have these I gota say like it's the best job in the
26:33
world. Like he has a great job. It's painful but it's the best job in the world. And Tupac spent his senior in
26:38
high school in Marin City. He was devastated because he loved the Baltimore School for the Arts. That's where he met Jada. A bunch of people
26:43
learned how to act. moves to Marin City and um his mom is addicted to crack and
26:50
someone said you need to talk to Brian Ty and I like who's Brian Tines he's like he was a he's a crack dealer in Marin City he's still there and you need
26:56
to talk to him I called him up I told him who I was and I was like I'd love to come up and talk to you I literally drove I think nine hours to
27:02
go talk to Brian and we're sitting in the front seat of his car and he's explaining to me what it was
27:09
like being a crack dealer what it was like in Merin City what a young Tupac was like and to me by far, whether it's sports,
27:17
hiphop, whatever, the best part of this job is the fish out of water. I can sit
27:22
next to a former crack dealer and ask him exactly what it was like to deal crack in Marin City. And the other
27:27
one that I love, so Tupac, he's living in Marin City and he had a rap battle with this rapper
27:34
named Tech. He was like 13 years old and he Tupac felt like he just got annihilated. He was in front of people.
27:40
He basically vanishes for five days. And uh he lived with these two guys, Ryan D and August Terry,
27:47
and they were like, "Where's Tupac? Where's Tupac? Where's Tupac go?" He comes back and he basically spent the
27:52
time roaming with a guy named Bobby Burton, who's also a kingpin and just,
27:57
you know, badass and taking notes. And he comes back. He
28:02
comes back and he writes Days of Criminal off of that experience. And I ended up having breakfast with
28:08
Bobby Burton, former king, and he's with his grandson. So, it's me, the former Kingpin, and the Kingpin's grandson, and
28:15
he's great, and he's open, and he likes telling these stories, and the grandson is like just, you know, drawing on a
28:21
napkin and whatever. And I love like I also love I know it sounds dumb. Maybe you feel this too sometimes when you see guys who like lived really
28:28
hard lives and now he's grandpa. Yeah. There's something so beautiful about that, you know, and he's like taking his
28:33
kid to a game afterwards. I love that. I eat up that stuff. Would you consider Tupac a chameleon?
28:39
what would or what would you consider him because he seemed to shape shift at every stage. Um I talked to IC one
28:47
time and I don't want to I don't want to quote him or even represent what he said
28:52
but in LA so LA and the I'll put it like this. LA and the Bay are very different.
28:58
Very, very different. Yeah. And he moved different
29:05
I don't want I don't want to say I don't want to say what he how he moved, but he moved very different in those places.
29:10
Yeah. Um essentially gang culture. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Oakland, I mean, if you even
29:17
just listen to his music, you hear the Oakland influence, the two short, the Ant Banks, when he's up there. Certainly, Digital Underground,
29:23
his first group, you hear this impact and it shifts completely. And I guess that's that's probably
29:29
somewhat common when artists move and they're exposed to different artists and all of a sudden you're exposed to Dre and stupid stuff like that.
29:34
I think wherever he was, he learned to adapt and I think he was,
29:39
and this is not an insult, I think he was a people pleaser. Like I think he was really good. The the white
29:45
elementary school teacher, Mrs. Greenleaf, Yeah. at PS in New York who I interviewed loved him. Right. Oh, he was
29:51
such a beautiful, polite kid. You know, the drama teachers in in Baltimore loved him. His classmates in Baltimore loved
29:59
him. I mean, one classmate described him to me. It's one of my favorite descriptions. He said, "Tupac was the
30:05
kind of kid who would have a ladybug on his hand and he would gently remove it and put it on a leaf." Right? That's how
30:10
now he gets to Oakland. He's in Marin City. He sees he can't be the same guy. He changes his name from MC New York to
30:17
Tupac. He adjusts. Obviously, Bishop had a big impact on him. I talked to a lot of people. I think it's a little lazy to
30:23
say like, "Oh, it changed him. It was he just became Bishop. I hate that argument so much." Yeah.
30:28
But certainly the response he got to being Bishop, right? Made it more appealing to him. I think it's undeniable.
30:34
Yeah. He got in a lot of of trouble based on those affiliations. you know, New York. Biggie warned him. Speaking of
30:41
Biggie, um I felt the tragedy of their friendship and Biggie trying so hard.
30:49
This is depicted very clearly in the book, how hard Biggie tried to to be friends with Pop and to warn
30:57
him. Yeah. Um I mean, visit him in the hospital after he was shot.
31:03
Couldn't see him. Was turned away. That was because the nurses because no one was seeing Tupac calls Watani, Tupac's
31:08
manager, and says, "I want to visit him in Clinton." And this is when Tupac has already disputed Venom about I want to
31:14
go visit him. But says it to Tupac. Tupac, I'm not let no way not doing it.
31:20
He built up. I think Biggie is in a way is a sympathetic character in the Tupac story because I you may disagree and this may
31:27
be me being out of way out of touch like I think Biggie was like I what is going on here? Like what? like you're blaming
31:33
me for this, right? You know. No. Do you disagree? I just think uh I don't know about sympathetic, but I
31:38
would definitely say that he put in the the effort. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Absolutely. Um
31:44
he really respected Pac and I think he loved Pac, you know. I agree. Yeah. It's crazy how Tupac was getting paid,
31:52
you know, he he was in so much debt because this is when he was paying lawyers, attorney fees, all that stuff.
31:57
He was doing a little Shawn verse at Quad Studios feature for $7,000. Yeah. $7,000. That's it,
32:03
right? That's insane. I don't know what it was at the time, what the artist got, but I'm sure it was
32:08
in cash. Yeah, it was in cash. Yeah, it was in cash because um Roseman called him. He kept he kept paging him during
32:16
the trial and Tupac actually threw his pager at Yasmin Foola in the middle of the trial and said, "Can you tell this
32:21
fool to stop paging me? I'm kind of busy right now." Yeah. And he kept paging him. He didn't even know him that well. Right. Then when he was driving down, he
32:28
he called him on the way and he said, um, Roseman said to him, "I don't have the money." The Tupac's like, "Well, I'm
32:33
not coming." Then called him back and said, "Well, I'll get Andre Horell to get that. He'll he promises me he'll get the money." Yeah.
32:38
And that was the little Sean $7,000. Right. It's $7,000 for a Tupac feature. I'm not even a rapper. I would say
32:45
$7,000 for a Tupac feature. Right. Did you um Okay, let me test you.
32:51
Oh, no. I might fail. You might fail. Have you ever heard the name Dexter Issacs? Yeah. Wait, but who is Dexter Isaacs? I
32:57
have. I swear to God. I'm not just saying that. Oh, hip hop broke that story. Which one is that? He was the guy he Oh, boy. My my brain
33:04
is not But he admitted to shooting Tupac
33:10
for Aquad. Roseman. Aquad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
33:15
I mean, you know, Tupac blamed everybody for that. Blamed uh
33:20
Puffy at one point. He blamed Biggy at one point. Yeah, he blamed um Stretch. I mean, he blamed
33:26
like and Stretch died to the day the year after. Yep. Was there any connection?
33:31
No, I don't think so. Do you think I don't? Look, it felt like it. I feel like as a biographer, you also
33:36
have to acknowledge when there are things you don't know. I don't know who shot in the Quad Studios, right? You know. Okay. You don't know.
33:41
I don't know for sure. Yeah. No, you should have talked to Dexter Issacs. I probably tried to reach him. I know I
33:46
tried to reach him. I'm not kidding. I guarantee you I tried to reach him. Yeah. I'll show you on my laptop after. I tried to call everyone. There was a
33:52
name. I thought it wasn't always that easy. Yeah. I mean, one of the um what's his name?
33:59
Moi. Moby. Yeah. Oh, Kumo. Cool. Wait. Wait.
34:07
From OB. Easy mo. Easy mo. Oh my god, you're messing me up. Easy moi. Yeah. All right. This is super weird. Number
34:14
one, lived in my hometown of Mopac, New York. Get out of here. And May pack New York
34:19
is not a place any hip-hop artist has ever lived in his life or producer or anything. He's from Oakland. Okay. He told me a crazy story about
34:26
Quad that I don't think has ever been written before. What? Okay. He was he and two of his friends were with Tupac earlier in the day in
34:34
the Park of Meridian smoking weed and talking. That night Tupac was supposed to perform
34:39
at a club in New Jersey. Moby was going to go with him. They show up at the Park of Meridian.
34:45
It's $50 to valet park your car. They decide not to valet park their car and go up.
34:50
Oh. And he's like, they're all arguing. They're literally arguing. I don't want to pay $50. Just pay the $50. I don't
34:55
want to pay $50. They decide not to. They park their car in the street. They're waiting on the street. They're standing outside the car, literally
35:01
right across the street from the hotel. They see Ayanna Jackson, whose name has been used a bunch now, so it's not revealing anything. They see her They
35:08
see her come down the elevator and out. And they actually later see Tupac escorted by police come down the elevator. At one point, a cop goes up to
35:17
Moby and the two guys he's with and says, "What are you guys doing here?" And they're like, "Well, we're waiting for Tupac."
35:22
And they see a police officer with Ayanna Jackson point to them across the street.
35:28
And basically, she could see like say, "Do you recognize them?" And Moby said to me, "If she had just felt like being vindictive or didn't see
35:35
that well or whatever, we easily could have been roped off in this." He said, "The best move I've ever made in my life is not paying $50 for valet parking
35:42
converted." That's crazy. Who didn't you get that you've tried to get that you? I mean, a lot of people.
35:47
Yeah. I didn't get his aunt Glow. I would have liked to talk to I did get her sons, Kenny and Billy. They were
35:53
great. Okay. I didn't get Dr. Dre or Snoop Dog, right? I would have liked to um you know, it's hard to get
35:59
It's hard to get I interviewed 650 people. I would have liked to interview a thousand people. You know, it's a lot
36:05
of people I'm an outsider. It's hard. It's a little harder and maybe a little easier in some points. It's a little both. I
36:11
had a TV show that helped me. Okay. I had Winning Time on HBO which is one of my books. Yeah. Shout out to that. And I use that a lot.
36:17
Okay. To sell people as an early idea. I would just be like, you know, I'm working on this book. I don't know if you saw the show HBO. Ah,
36:22
Winning Time. Like a lot of people liked Winning Time. So that helped you as a journalist. I loved Winning Time. Thanks.
36:27
That first season was unparalleled. And then he got cancelled after too. Yeah.
36:33
Shout out to Rodney Barnes, too, though. Oh, the other writer. Love Rodney. Yeah. Yeah. He's the best. Yeah. Well, the the TV side. Yeah, he's
36:40
the best. Yeah, he's a good friend. Y um Wow. Trying to think what else can
36:46
I What else can I ask? Okay, so we got time. We got time. Um Oh
36:53
my god. What can I Because I I really want people to read the book. I really think it's worth reading. So, let me ask
36:59
you the hard question. One of the hard harder questions. Uh, have anybody have
37:05
you gotten any feedback from hiphop people in hip-hop or the family?
37:11
Who's who's right? So, so far um, very few people I've read it. I sent
37:17
it to Ray Love. Ray Love was early partnered Strictly Dope. I haven't heard back from Ray yet,
37:22
but Ray is a great guy. Um, Leila Steinberg read it. Yasm mean Fooler read it,
37:28
but not that many people have read it yet, so it's a little early. What did Ila say?
37:33
Ila liked it a lot. She said, "You really got it." Okay. And you know, so that was good. Ila knew Tuck really, really well.
37:39
I'm sure you're waiting to hear from Sua set. Yeah. And um I know it's going to be a
37:46
hard read for her. She actually told me I'm not going to read it. Okay. She did. But that doesn't mean she won't read it. I think it's better that she doesn't
37:52
read it. Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like I have to send her a copy and I will send her a copy. It comes out a few days. So I'll send her a copy.
37:57
Okay. Yeah. But it's uh it's always scary when the book comes out. Yeah. like terrifying actually. Is it I mean it is for you. Wh why
38:07
you're dealing first of all this book in particular I mean you're dealing with an iconic iconic
38:14
I got death threats for saying he wasn't that great with a gun and he wasn't a great fighter like
38:20
for that like there's a lot of it's a heavy book you read it it's a heavy heavy book
38:26
and people have very emotional responses to Tupac and there have also been a million
38:31
different stories told about Tupac some differently than minem Mhm. It's just it's and it's always scary
38:37
because you're vulnerable as a writer. You are kind of vulnerable no matter what you write. You know, you put it out there and you're putting yourself out there.
38:43
Social media has not made it better. It's made harder, you know. So, uh yeah, I always get nervous. What What are your you know, what are
38:49
your thoughts on um Oh my god. What was I gonna say? I'm
38:55
sorry y'all. Um I'm gonna have to edit this because I'm
39:02
I'm freezing. Okay. So, let me All right. So, I what
39:07
I'm doing is I'm delaying something that just ask that I just ask it. So, in the book,
39:14
Tupac's fluid sexually. He has a lot of sex. First of all, he has like tons of sex.
39:20
I mean, in high school, he was described by a couple classmates as like sexually curious. I'm going to
39:27
ask you a question. This to me, this to me is the one thing when you talk about an outsider writing
39:32
a book. This is something for me. Okay, so Tupac certainly
39:39
had experience running trainings, right, when he was, and that's just a fact. It's undeniable.
39:44
Undeniable, right? I'm not even criticizing him or not critic. Um, a woman I interviewed, you know, a spontaneous Oh, anyway, former hip-hop
39:52
artist, uh, adult film star. Oh, I I remember her from the book. Yeah. lovely, lovely person, one of my
39:58
favorite people. And she's I talked to her in in depth about running trains. And she's like a lot of times the women are okay with it. You know, it depends if the women are okay with whole thing.
40:05
Okay. I feel like nobody would bat an eye. Not nobody, but a lot of people
40:10
would just be like train you ran a train. I do not make the case in this book at all that everyone asked is Tupac
40:17
gay. I don't know. Like I don't make the case that Tupac was gay. But I feel like if I said if I said in this book if if
40:22
somehow it was suggested Tupac was gay, that would be like the most horrible thing in hip-hop ever. But if you said
40:28
he was running trains on women, it would almost be like h what's the big deal? That to me is a little in 2025. I don't
40:36
fully get like I just don't get that. Like there have been gay artists since then.
40:41
Danny Boy openly gay and they're different guys. Like why is it still so taboo in I'm asking you. I'm
40:47
doing the interviewing, I guess. I You got me, man. I don't think it's taboo right now. You don't? No, I don't.
40:54
I think it was back in the day, you know. Um,
40:59
even though it was always there, it was always there, of course. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
41:04
Um, we we may not have known or may have even been in denial, but it's always
41:10
been there. Interesting. So you think now if tomorrow but but with him, you know, I think he epitomized what one would consider an
41:17
alpha male in hiphop. But it's so interesting because early early on, someone I know very well who
41:24
works in hiphop said to me, "Have you seen the interview of him when he was a TAM and this is a very famous interview
41:29
and he's very feminite in that interview." Mhm. And when he used to go to Baltimore School for the Arts, I mean, people would describe him as like a butterfly
41:36
or like Puck from a Midsummer Night Dream. Then he has painted nails and he's painting his pants and he has
41:42
Pac did. Tupac did. Oh, yeah. Oh, I did. I I maybe. Yeah. No, no, no. Tupac. Okay. He wore fingernail polish to school. Okay.
41:48
Painted his own jeans different colors and Well, we all did that. Sure. Sure. But I'm just saying like he was like this and he loved Kate Bush and
41:55
Peter Gabriel and Randy Travis and Anything But the Girl and like Yeah. all Indigo Girls, like all kind of music across the spectrum,
42:01
right? And he was like he was like kind of if you see him back then like I wouldn't say he wasn't had
42:07
didn't have a feminite, you know, like he had moment he was a pretty he was a he was puck as many people
42:14
would say he was like puck from a Midsummer's Night Dream. He was like a kind of and like I think people look at him and
42:19
they say no he was hard and like he was kind of all over the place. I'm not even talking sexually. Yeah. Doesn't
42:24
matter is you watch that interview from Chim, you wouldn't say he's hard, right? You watch him talking after he's out of
42:30
prison, he's hard. Yeah. So, yeah, like you said, multiple places definitely soft.
42:36
Well, let me just admit to this. I loved Kate Bush. I love Kate Bush, too. So did Big Boy from Out. So does Big Boy
42:43
from Outcast. Yeah. I actually think more white fans are surprised that
42:49
hip-hop artists have different influences than fans who know, black fans in particular who know because if
42:55
you listen to what's sampled, I mean, one of my favorite one of my favorite people I met in this this book by far, there's a songwriter named
43:02
Franny Goldie and she wrote a Dennis Edwards song that is the that is uh that became Hit
43:09
Up. Mhm. She told me just the best story, which is, you know, she's like a Jewish woman from
43:14
Chicago and she writes a song with Dennis Edwards. Wow. She was high and she gets a call. Yeah. She's like, I was
43:20
like, the detail. Well, because there are like there's like afroentric beats in the chant in the song. And she joked to me. She's
43:25
like, "Those are written by two high Jewish people, writing a song in Chicago." And this song comes out. It's a great song. Um,
43:31
don't look any further. Yes. Don't look any further. Wait. Don't. By the way, Dennis Edwards in that video. Have you ever seen the video?
43:37
Yeah. Well, Crazy video. It's a cocaine jaw. He does this thing.
43:42
Bo, they call it Bobby Brown jaw. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I shouldn't say cocaine jaw because we Bobby Brown draw. Um, so she told me she
43:50
um years later, her manager, someone calls her, she's like, "Uh, when you
43:55
come in next time, we got to talk about something." She comes in this meeting. They're like, "Uh, so the rapper Tupac Shakur wants to use wants to sample one
44:03
of your songs, the Dennis Edwards song." And she's like, she owns Songwriting Credit. She's like, "Oh, that's wonderful." And she goes, "Um, I think
44:09
you should read the lyrics." Right? And it's, "Hit him up." Right? And she's reading him up and she goes, "Oh my." Right?
44:15
She's like, "Uh, I don't think I don't think I want this." Right? And the guy goes,
44:20
"Do do you know who Suge Knight is?" Right. And she goes, "No, I don't." She's like, "Well, he runs Death Row Records, and
44:26
unless you want someone knocking on your door, you might want to let them use the lyrics." And the funny thing is, years later,
44:32
she's thrilled. Like, she thinks it's cool. The other one I just want to say changes is the Bruce Hornsby hook. The
44:37
way it is, right? I called Bruce Hornsby for the book. He told me a great story. He's like, uh, he didn't know Tupac. He'd heard of him,
44:43
but he didn't know his music. And they sent him a Tupac CD with changes on it when it came out. I think it was a greatest hits maybe compilation.
44:50
He and his wife are driving to a banquet at the mansion of former Virginia Governor Chuck Rob.
44:56
And they pull up and it's all white people except for the like three guys
45:01
parking the cars. And he said he had this vivid memory. They open they're like blasting Chewbacc loving this album
45:07
and they open the doors and you hear that's why I [ __ ] your [ __ ] you blah blah blah and all the like people are like
45:15
ashen and these three guys just think it's the funniest thing ever and it was Bruce Horns's favorite memory of changes
45:21
and he loves changes. That's hilarious. That is crazy. So, let's talk about So, before I say let's
45:27
talk about who as you're telling these stories, it's it's it's really the the put put Tupac
45:36
to the side. There's there's literally like a cast of characters. A Fainy I mean
45:42
uh and there's details with other people as well. who interviewed
45:48
many people and they provide this color and this texture to all the other people as well which is
45:55
sometimes equally shocking you know equally you know you know um informative
46:04
um and then there's Suge Knight and I tried reading Suge Well Suge first of all Suge is
46:10
talking I know all the time and it's crazy so you couldn't get Suge
46:16
Okay. He's in prison in San Diego. I don't live that far away from San Diego. Um, you can't just So, I have done
46:23
prison interviews before where I literally have just shown up and the guy doesn't know I'm coming and they come out and they see you and they sit down.
46:30
At the prison, he's like, "You can't do that." Okay. However, they have a weird system where you can text an inmate
46:35
if you pay X amount on your account. And I text him. I introduce myself. No response. No response.
46:41
Every now and then he'd be like, "Okay." He'd like like, "Okay." I'd be like, "Hey, I'm still working this book." he'd write back okay or something like that.
46:47
And the only time I got any emotive response is I found a report card from when he was at UNLV for like
46:52
introduction to music or music theory and he got a D and I sent him the report card and he wrote back, "Ah,
46:57
oh wow." And that was it. But he wouldn't he never would agree to Mimi. So you talk to as many people as you can about him.
47:04
I mean I talked to like sports background. Solomon Wilcox's a future NFL announcer, a former Bengal.
47:09
I grew up with him in Compton. So like um interview him, different guys he grew up with, different people he came up
47:15
with and tried to build a a portrait of Sug Knight. Gotcha. I mean the big thing about Suge that's interesting like Tupac, he was never a
47:23
gangbaker. Like he was a you know halftime at the football games in high school, he'd run out in his
47:29
football uniform and play drums in the marching band. Yeah. He was a like UNLV. People loved him at
47:34
UNLV. Yeah. Played three games as a Los Angeles Ram in 1987. Replacement player. Yeah. He uh he did did did he put on a
47:42
persona in your opinion? Was was was was the Sugge Knight because you know Suge Knight eventually got
47:48
knocked out by a barber. Yeah. And then the Mystique Yeah. And and then then the Mystique and then he got shot
47:54
and like that's the equivalent of when Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas. Once you get knocked down, it's not the same.
48:00
Yeah. Unless you're like me whenever knocks you down. Oh yeah. Um do I think it was a Mystique though?
48:06
Yeah. I think a lot of it he relied on Mystique. Mhm. And he hired a lot of bloods. A lot of bloods. And
48:13
you know, he um I interviewed one guy, this is a common story, but I interviewed one guy who worked for him and he said um he walks him he hires
48:19
him. He walks him over to the window. He goes, "Take a look out the window." The guy was like, "All right." He goes, "When people screw up here, we don't
48:25
fire them. We throw them out windows." I thought, "All right, there you go." You know,
48:30
it's a weird guy. Knight's a weird guy. Well, I I have one up on you. I interviewed him once. How was he?
48:36
He was cool. He was he was trying to get out of jail at that point. So he was real. Did you visit him or was this on the phone? No, no phone. Yeah. And that was the
48:43
last time. Everything else since has been podcast things like that. He does talk
48:49
to TMZ regularly, it seems. I do think he was a uh he wanted to be the Barry Gordy
48:55
of hiphop and I do think for a period of time he was that like if you look at what Death Row was putting out. Yeah.
49:00
But but it but it was it was unsustainable. It was unsustainable and he kind of screwed over Harry O and I think Dick Griffy. Am
49:09
I right? Wow. Yeah, good call. He worked for Dick Griffy first. Dick Griffy hired him and he represent. He was Bobby Brown's bodyguard at first after he left New
49:16
Edition. Yeah. Yeah. So there was there was some funny business and then of course Dr. Dre left. Yeah. And then uh Tupac does uh Gay Ask Dre
49:24
and to Live and Die in LA. Everything gets crazy. Yeah. Did did Suge destroy Pac in your
49:31
opinion? Did what was was it ultimately Suge that that was the the the thing
49:37
that I mean what how did it's a great question. How did we lose Tupac is my ultimate
49:44
question. He w Okay, it's a great question. It's such a great question for me. Okay, let's speak personally.
49:51
I admired the version of him that was very pro black. You know, Brenda's got a
49:57
baby, trapped, all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. spoke truth to power, shot two
50:02
offduty cops, not knowing they were cops, but just like defending somebody, right? That's the guy I was with. And then,
50:11
respectfully, we all were watching this show that turned into something completely
50:18
different. and Suge Knight seemed to be
50:23
like, you know, you know how when you're ready to fight and you have a friend that's like, "Yo, let's kill everybody." Yeah.
50:30
And then you have one like, "No, we're going to get in trouble." Devil and Angel on your shoulder, right? Yeah. It felt like um I don't know. What do
50:36
you What do you think? What? I know people have different opinions on Mob James, who I interviewed for the
50:41
book. I understand that. But he said something to me that really resonated. He was like um he was really when I interviewed him
50:49
he got really animated about this about Tupac's death and how it didn't have to happen and how he bought into this thing like
50:55
two uh shouldn't I sold him this idea of what it is to be hip-hop and what it is to be thug
51:03
and he bought into it and I you know I started this book wondering whether it
51:09
was my vantage point again white sports writer that his death was just
51:15
absolutely stupid. Like at the end of the day, it was a stupid death. And I have to say at the end of this journey, like it still doesn't make sense to me.
51:22
You're in the MGM Grand. You just saw the Tyson fight. I get it. I get it. You you smoked weed and you
51:28
you you know been drinking and you're like all fired up and you love Tyson and the fight did it for you. I get it.
51:34
You see Orlando Anderson. Yeah. Trayvon Lane points him out and says, "That's a guy who stole my chain." Or Jack, you know, at the Foot Locker.
51:40
Yeah. Why is Tupac the one going up to him? Why isn't someone Yeah. You think Bruce Springsteen is punching
51:46
someone out in a casino or Lionel Richie or anyone? Like it's so stupid. Like it's so unnecessary that it was Tupac.
51:53
Yeah. Who goes up to him and I interviewed one of Orlando Anderson's really close friends. Like I I really
51:58
tried hard to find people going through all court records and stuff. I found this guy who grew up with Orlando Anderson. And I know some people are going to be
52:04
like, "You don't know what you're talking about." But he did say to me something that resonated. He's like, well Anderson was not going to be able
52:10
to come back to Compton having been beat up by a rapper. Like you're you are a Compton [ __ ] Everyone saw what
52:17
happened. You're not going to be able to come home and keep your head high and maintain your reputation. It'd be one
52:22
thing if it was a guy an actual death row guy, an actual mirror guy. You got beat up by a rapper.
52:28
Like, how are you going to do that? And I don't even think, again, I know a lot of people disagree.
52:33
I don't think the mystery of his death is nearly as mysterious as a lot of people do. And most people I interviewed agreed with me. He has this
52:40
happen because for Puffy to arrange this, okay? Or or or Suge to arrange it. Tupac would have to. So you plant
52:46
Orlando Anderson in the casino. You have him wearing a Damn Marino Miami Dolphins jersey. You have Trayvon Lane say to
52:53
Tupac, "That's the guy." You know for a fact Tupac is going to run up to him and punch him. You know everyone else is
52:59
going to stomp him out. Then you know later they're going to be able to find you. Even though you first went to Suge's club, then drove to Flamingo
53:05
Koval. You would have to mastermind all of that happening. Yeah. For it to happen. Again, I know there are people who
53:11
disagree with me. I'm not [ __ ] on your theories. To me, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. No, I've talked to I I I have some
53:18
some homeboys and they they're just like, "No, this is LA and this is what happens." And I talked to a bunch of cops in Vegas
53:25
and they hated Tyson fights. They hated Tyson fights. They said Tyson fights just drew a lot of gangbangers from LA
53:30
and it would be like patrolling would be really hard, you know. Yeah. All right. We're wrapping up. You um
53:38
well, we I should say have a a case where maybe we quote unquote
53:45
solve, you know, this this this thing gets kind of wrapped up in a bow with um
53:51
what's his name? The guy on trial, uh Kei. Kefi D. Yeah. Kephy D. Sorry.
53:59
What do you think of that? Do you think this will give closure? No. No. No. Because at the end of the day,
54:07
whether it's uh Marilyn Monroe, how'd she die? James Dean, how'd he die? Glenn Bias, who gave him the cocaine,
54:13
people are fascinated by young death. And nothing is better TV. Nothing is
54:18
better documentaries. Lester Holt, today we're going to talk about so and so. Netflix, what's the cheapest way to do a
54:24
documentary? Dead celebrity. Dead young celebrity. Yeah. I just think 100 years from now, they'll
54:29
be someone will be have this whatever the websites are 100 years from now. Mhm. The real killer of Tupac was blank blank
54:36
blank. So, no, I don't actually. Do you? No. I mean, we've seen AI have Pac,
54:44
you know, doing everything in Cuba with with with Nipy. And you saw Mr. Rogers or two
54:50
Mr. Rogers. It's so It's disgusting. By the way, I should say I think about his sister. I swear to God, I think his sister and I'm like,
54:55
she doesn't need this. Yeah, it's it's sick. It's It's sick. Literally, I hate it. I hate it. So, no.
55:01
Uh, people are definitely fascinated. It's also wrong for Mr. Rogers. Absolutely. It really is. It really is. That guy devoted devoted his life to
55:08
being this guy. Tubac devoted his life to being this guy. Yeah. And you just Yeah. Mr. Rogers was my guy. He never
55:14
failed me. Yeah. You knew what he was going to wear every episode. Definitely. Yeah. Shout out to Mr.
55:20
Rogers. Yeah. Big ups. And uh Bob Ross, too. Oh yeah, him too. Yeah. Everyone Bob Ross two.
55:27
Stephen Hawking. Yeah. Oh my god. I don't even It's so cruel. Yeah, it's really cruel. Yeah. Anyway, that's a whole another
55:34
conversation. AI, it's going to make the world a better place. Yeah. Jeff Pearlman, the the uh old hell
55:39
raiser still alive in you. Not trying to raise hell, just trying to write your book. Raise heaven, whatever. Something. Yeah.
55:45
No. Um, yeah, man. I just want to say congratulations. You are um, you know, a
55:51
best-selling author. I know your pedigree. I've always known your pedigree. And this is why I did not
55:58
discourage you, but I encouraged you to do your thing. That said, I didn't know it was going to
56:04
be this. You know what I say, Chuck? I have no idea. Wait, I'm being serious. I love I'm not
56:10
kidding. I love this. I love that. Like, so I graduated college in '94. You said you graduated 95. Yeah.
56:15
I love that like 30 years later, we're sitting here in a studio. Yeah. Having this conversation. Just the
56:21
unlikeliness of it all, you know, like the coolness of it. I just think it's awesome. So, I really appreciate I've always admired you. Like I've always been a big fan.
56:26
Thank you. And you've had me on your platforms. Y um Yeah, man. It's it's it's it's
56:31
interesting. We're getting old. We I don't think getting I think we're there. No, you're old. I'm not old.
56:37
There's not a lot of hair, you know? Right. Yeah. Shout to you D. I still have my hair.
56:42
Thank you. Thank you. Um any final words, Jeff? Any final words? I just I know in this age of 20
56:50
second videos and super clicks, it's not as common to give a whole book a chance, but I think if people read the book,
56:57
they'll at least see the amount of work and effort and passion and I hope sympathy and empathy that I try to put
57:02
into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'll stop I'll stop there, but yes, I think empathy sympathy is is in is is
57:11
should be in abundance when reading this. Yeah. Thank you. Yep.

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