Journalist and author Jeff Pearlman has chronicled sports icons for decades, but his latest book, Only God Can Judge Me: The Many Lives of Tupac Shakur, dives headfirst into Hip-Hop’s most complicated legend.

The University of Delaware alum and author of 11 books sat with AllHipHop’s Chuck “Jigsaw” Creekmur at WoWorld Studios to unpack how a suburban kid who loved Public Enemy and Big Daddy Kane became the author who spent three years and hundreds of interviews chasing the full story of Tupac Shakur.

Pearlman speaks openly about asking for guidance, getting checked by Pac’s sister and learning that curiosity without humility can get you burned. He talks openly about Afeni Shakur as a bold, brilliant American revolutionary who also battled addiction. Lastly, and perhaps most significantly, the New York Times best-seller made the choice between crafting a fan-pleasing biography or a historic record. The truth is elusive in Hip-Hop, but Pearlman’s penchant for digging has unearthed some shocking revelations.

Watch the interview below or read part of a Q&A with Creekmur.

Jeff Pearlman: Am I your first non Hip-Hop white guest?

Chuck “Jigsaw” Creekmur (AllHipHop): Yes.

Jeff: I will take it. I am Jewish. Am I your first Jewish guest?

AllHipHop:  No, we have had plenty of Jewish guests. Nah, seriously Jeff, thanks for coming through.

Jeff: Of course. We go way back. We both went to the University of Delaware.

AllHipHop: About three or so years ago when you started kicking it around, we talked and it almost felt like you were asking permission, because Kevin Powell was on your mind.

Jeff: I was looking for guidance, for someone to say this is not a horrible idea. I have a lot of respect for Kevin Powell as a journalist. I have read him for years. I did something dumb. He had on his website for years that he was working on a Tupac book. I had wanted to write about Tupac for a long time. I got his number and texted him, because no one answers phones anymore. I introduced myself. He was not happy to hear from me. I wrote clumsily that he had it on his site for a long time and I assumed he was not doing it, so I decided to do it. Looking back, that was not cool.

Jeff (cont.): He wrote back about white privilege and whatever, and I cannot argue with what he said. I have had a very privileged career. I wanted to write this book for a long time and he was not doing it. Did he tell me he was not doing it? I do not think so. He emphasized he is a poet now. He might still do it, but I wanted to do the book, and by that point I was into it. Even if he had said he was working on it, I probably would have kept going.

AllHipHop: Shout out to Kevin Powell.

Jeff: One hundred percent. Kevin Powell wrote some of the best stuff about Tupac ever.

AllHipHop:  Let me ask you this because you are a white guy and you see things differently than someone like me or other Hip-Hop aficionados. What is your perspective on Tupac overall, from when you started to now?

Jeff:  Over the years I really got into Tupac. I loved the music and was fascinated by the story. I wanted to read the great Tupac book and did not feel it was out there. I went in as a curious guy, acknowledging I do not have your background in Hip-Hop. I tried to be a blank slate and told people, this is who I am. I am a white guy from rural New York, and you will never find anyone more interested to listen. That is a superpower. I will listen to everything you say.

Jeff (cont.): After six hundred fifty interviews in three years, when I talk about Tupac I get profoundly sad. His life was full of trauma and pain. When I sat with his sister, Sekyiwa, she told me two things. In therapy, the first thing she told her therapist was about rats running through their Baltimore row house. The sound still haunts her. There was also a moment that was important for me as a white journalist. I asked, “What was it like when you moved from Baltimore to Marin City.” She said, “That is your white privilege. We did not move. We were relocated.” There is a huge difference. That hit me. It is one thing to say someone was poor, but hearing “we were relocated” changes your understanding.

AllHipHop: When I read the book cover to cover, I could not put it down, which is rare in our distraction world. I was moved by the first half where the trauma plays out. I had no clue. I was almost speechless. What did you learn from those beginnings?

Jeff: The trauma is unbelievable. Tupac had something unique happen to him that most of us do not experience. My hero was my dad. He was my role model. He was not perfect, but he was great. Tupac’s hero, his mother Afeni Shakur, became a crack addict before his eyes. Afeni should be taught in American history. Panther 21, representing herself in court as a twenty one year old pregnant woman without a high school degree, turning down an attorney, winning her case. It is insane. Everywhere Tupac went, he bragged about his mom.

At Dunbar High School and later at the Baltimore School for the Arts, he talked about his mom, the Black Panther. At the same time, he watched her plummet into addiction. She was not home. She was chasing the high. At one point she tried aborting a pregnancy by taking even more crack. Imagine your hero also being the person whose decline you witness. That was his being. It fueled his art and his pain.

AllHipHop:  I have no comment because it is mind blowing and sad. You interviewed so many people. There are a few notable things. We will get into some of them.

Jeff: The thing about a biography like this is important. You have a decision to make. Am I writing a definitive look at the full life, or a book for fans that reinforces everything they want to believe. Or am I writing a book that might be hard to read but aims to be the true historic record. I am not saying I succeed or fail, but you try to do right. You have to make choices as a journalist.

AllHipHop:  In Hip-Hop we walk a very tight rope. It is tough to tell the absolute truth. Truth is murky.

Jeff: I have gotten some death threats. It is new to me. I did something stupid. A couple months before the book came out I was on a podcast. It was not about Tupac. They asked me about him. You get used to talking sports. In sports you can BS and toss off takes about the Jets or Justin Fields. I answered flippantly. I do not remember my exact words. Something like a lot of it was an act, he was not great with a gun, and he was not a great fighter. On one hand, there is research behind parts of that, but it was flippant. The recognition for me was that this is not a subject a white outsider sports writer can be flip about. Period. I was not thinking. I got blowback. You do not get that in sports the same way. In Hip-Hop it happens. When I was on Fox News I got similar negativity. It hurts. People say do not read it. It is not that easy. Hopefully no more death threats.

AllHipHop: That said, in the book there is the Parker Meridian case which led to prison. There is also another sexual assault allegation you surfaced. Tell that story.

Jeff: People will say you just want to sell books. If my goal were only to sell books I would not include this. It is painful and it sucks. I found a redacted police report about a woman who, four months before the Parker Meridian situation in New York City, accused Tupac and some guys he rolled with of rape. She filed a full report. I later found the unredacted version and reached out. It was her twenty first birthday. She was with friends at a club. Tupac and four other guys were there. She danced with Tupac. She thought it was cool to dance with him. She had a boyfriend, a USC football player, not at the club. Her friends were ready to leave. She said, give it a few minutes. She went outside and they left.

These guys saw her upset. This was pre cellphone and pre rideshare. They asked if she needed a ride. She said yes. She told me she thought she would be safe because he was famous. Instead of driving her home, Tupac said they needed to stop by his place near the club. She said she would wait in the car. He said come in. He said come into the bedroom. According to her and the report, he sexually assaulted her. According to her he invited a friend into the situation. She started screaming. He told his friend to take her home. The friend started driving, then said he would only drive her home if she performed a sexual act. She did. She got home to her boyfriend, screaming and crying. He wanted to round up teammates and handle it. She said no, I want to file a police report. She filed. The documents say she was bleeding from the rectum, had blood in her. The authorities decided not to pursue it. The report says she had a chance to run away at 71st Street and did not, therefore they would not pursue it.

Jeff (cont.): I found her. She did not want to talk at first. I tried twice. She asked if I had the report. I showed it to her. She was angry, because it reminded her that they did not pursue it and after everything she put into it. She read it. She told me she could not tell me everything, but she believes the other woman, because he did the exact same thing to her. Do I like recording that? No. Will people hate me for recording it? Maybe. But what are you supposed to do when you write biography and the Parker Meridian is a huge piece, the reason he went to Clinton. You check, you call, you have the redacted and unredacted reports. You know what allegedly happened. I interviewed the woman. She said, I am 52, do not use my name. I did not use it. She is an alleged rape victim, married with kids. Why would she make this up all these years later?

AllHipHop: Here is a question for Hip-Hop. Is there any possibility that some of the things you unearthed are wrong or incorrect?

Jeff: In biography you rely on memory often. In this case I had documentation, but in general you rely on people. I talked to Jim Belushi because of Gang Related, and to Lela Rochon who was awesome. She told me a great story. There was a delay on set. Tupac said, let’s go to a movie, not as a date, just a movie next door. She said, “I am not going with you.” He asked why. She said, “I do not want to get shot.” Is it possible she said something else, or made up a headache? It is possible. It was 30 years ago. As a biographer you rely on memories and hope they are accurate. You double and triple check the important details. For smaller set anecdotes, you are more willing to rely on memory.

AllHipHop:  What was your favorite part of the book to report? What did you enjoy?

Jeff: Marin City. I love his time there. It was painful for him. This is the best job in the world even when it is painful. Tupac spent his senior year of high school in Marin City. He was devastated because he loved the Baltimore schools. He met Jada (Pinkett) and learned how to act there. He moved to Marin City. His mom was addicted to crack. Someone told me to talk to a crack dealer in Marin City who is still there. I called him, told him who I was, and drove nine hours to talk. We sat in the front seat of his car and he explained what it was like dealing crack in Marin City and what a young Tupac was like. The fish out of water part of this job is the best. I can sit next to a former crack dealer and ask exactly what it was like.

AllHipHop:  Would you consider Tupac a chameleon? He seemed to shape shift at every stage.

Jeff: Exactly. Wherever he was, he learned to adapt.